Help with body position

**jaswib** · 16-08-2015, 04:53 PM

Hi guys so after the majority of my riding life being on dirt and enduro bikes plus my roady is a Ducati hypermotard im really struggling with my body position on my newly aquired r6. This is my 3rd time out and my times are improving but still feel damm uncomfortable on it being a big bloke of 115kg probably does not help and plus a powerlifting and bodybuilding background means my flexibility is that of a cow. I have a training day coming up with Marshy that will definitely help.
Any feedback would be awesome and dont hold back. Cheers Jason

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**Ruckos87** · 16-08-2015, 05:42 PM

I'm far from an expert (actually I'll watch this post with a keen eye for some tips myself ) but 3rd track day. I'd say your killing it

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**jaswib** · 16-08-2015, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Plumb

I'm far from an expert (actually I'll watch this post with a keen eye for some tips myself ) but 3rd track day. I'd say your killing it

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3rd track day on this bike have a few on the duke under my belt but being fully upright to sportbike is killing me lol

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**Nelso** · 16-08-2015, 10:00 PM

I can relate; so much so, that I have had to modify all of my bikes so that I can ride them. The seats have all been raised and I run riser clip-ons on all of them (I'm 123kg and have a lot of old injuries to contend with). After doing that, I also had to learn to open my hips to the direction I am turning (think belt buckle to the direction you are turning) and I had to learn to bend my back. When I first started riding sports bikes I was stiff in my spine like you are and was crossed up, with my arse off the seat but my chest up and turned into the bike, like yours is. It's hard for smaller riders to understand the difficulties larger riders have fitting on and moving around a bike, but there are a few things that make it easier. It's one of those things that is much easier to show, than explain, though.

**Turbo** · 16-08-2015, 10:02 PM

Hey Jase,
the R6 took a lot of getting used to for me. It's a VERY aggressive riding position.
i'd recommend spending some time with rearsets, clipons, stomp grips and even the seat to get you locked on to the bike as best you can, with the lower body. After that, it'll be about putting your upper body and head further into the turns.
Marshy is great for pointers and set-up. Also get as many photos as you can so that you can see how you look.

**Metal-Man** · 17-08-2015, 12:19 AM

be good idea to get a video camera on your tail section facing u, so you can see your body positioning each time you go out on track ... just so u can visualise yourself from a different perspective. ;-)

**jaswib** · 17-08-2015, 07:53 AM

Thanks for the input guys i will definitely try to lock my lower body in better might go back to the stock seat. Im sure it will take time in getting the upper body right aswell i had no idea i actually looked like this until i saw some pics it will definitely help in correcting my bad form and the gopro on the back is a great idea to. It almost seems when i jump on the bike i just go into autopilot mode and i will really have to work on that and actually trying to get off the bike and open up more. Hopefully Marshy will be easy on me lol.

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**jaswib** · 13-10-2015, 08:31 AM

Starting to see some progress had a good day at the track on thurs shaved the times down and am starting to feel more comfortable on the bike bring on the next ardc day keen for some more training off Marshy and lets hope i dont crash again lol.

Now i just have to learn how to turn right lol.

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**Turbo** · 13-10-2015, 09:11 AM

Looking MUCH better, mate!
Your chest is much closer to the tank and your back is straighter. Looks like there's still some room to get your upper body further off and your head tucked in a bit further. Really good progress tho, well done!

**jaswib** · 13-10-2015, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sicko

Looking MUCH better, mate!
Your chest is much closer to the tank and your back is straighter. Looks like there's still some room to get your upper body further off and your head tucked in a bit further. Really good progress tho, well done!

Thanks mate yep there's definitely alot of room for improvement hopefully i can make some more improvements the next time im out its amazing on how much you can pick up when your actually shown what your doing wrong and where you should be on the bike. Now to work on my inconsistent lines lol.

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**Nelso** · 14-10-2015, 07:46 PM

You actually look better going through the right hander than the left. On the lefts, you are still a bit crossed up and it all comes from the direction your hip is facing. When you open your hip up and lock in with your outside leg it will become much easier to drop your chest to the inside of the tank.

**jaswib** · 14-10-2015, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Nelso

You actually look better going through the right hander than the left. On the lefts, you are still a bit crossed up and it all comes from the direction your hip is facing. When you open your hip up and lock in with your outside leg it will become much easier to drop your chest to the inside of the tank.

Thanks for the tips mate i need all the help i can get

i will definitely make a effort the next time i go out and hopefully improve.

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**jaswib** · 22-12-2015, 06:45 PM

Here are the most recent pics from Friday i had major setup issues for the first half of the day and felt a whole lot better the last couple of sessions. Looks like i can still drop the upper body a whole lot. It actually felt comfortable in getting the knee down for once so things must be moving in the right direction. Lap times are definitely improving and hit a pb of some 1.46s on the last session when i was super fatigued so hopefully i can better that the next time out. Any more input would be much appreciated.

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**Ruckos87** · 22-12-2015, 08:08 PM

146s nice

🏻

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**Marshy** · 22-12-2015, 08:24 PM

Looking good, Jas!! I've finally got those SS stickers for you too.

**jaswib** · 22-12-2015, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Marshy

Looking good, Jas!! I've finally got those SS stickers for you too.

Awesome mate they will make me faster for sure. Ill see you out there on the 3rd will you be reserving a garage ?

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**Marshy** · 22-12-2015, 08:56 PM

Yeah I will

**jaswib** · 03-03-2016, 09:10 PM

So im starting to feel really comfortable on the bike now i have been really working on lower body lock on and dropping the elbow abit more it was so apparent when looking at footage of my self that Marshy got of me last ardc day that i had to implement these changes asap and well it resulted in a 41.7 on a shagged tyre ☺☺

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**Mr.Ed** · 03-03-2016, 09:19 PM

Looking really good!

**Turbo** · 03-03-2016, 09:20 PM

Like a different rider, well done mate!!

How are your lines coming along??

**Nelso** · 09-03-2016, 08:55 AM

Nice! That's a huge difference in body position and times in a relatively short time. Well done.

**jaswib** · 09-03-2016, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Nelso

Nice! That's a huge difference in body position and times in a relatively short time. Well done.

Thanks mate its still a work in progress but i think im on the right track. 👍

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**windy** · 16-03-2016, 07:50 AM

Gday guys, I have having some trouble improving. So i thought I would throw some pics up from mondays td and see what you guys think or can recommend i do.
I am also feeling like the bike isnt real stable in the front end. So need to work on that.
Maybe looking for some tuition as well.

Thanks heaps guys

uploadfromtaptalk1458074987008.jpg uploadfromtaptalk1458074996696.jpg uploadfromtaptalk1458075003851.jpg uploadfromtaptalk1458075010988.jpg

**nigelnobody** · 16-03-2016, 10:36 AM

Pics look ok,seem pretty relaxed on the bike.
Body position is only part.of the puzzle, although setting up well before the corner reduces unsettling.
Coaching on track may help put it all together.

**Marshy** · 16-03-2016, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by nigelnobody

seem pretty relaxed on the bike.

Not to me. I'd guess you're gripping the bars too tightly, with too much weight through the bars. Being crossed up like that usually means you're uncomfortable with the front, which would make sense if it feels unstable.

Ironically, people tend to grip the bars too tightly because the front feels uncomfortable, which amplifies the effect, making it feel worse and making you grip the bars even more tightly......

Assuming your suspension is ok (and it may not be!) I'd be working on gripping/locking on with your outside leg, unweighting the bars (weight the pegs instead), and dropping your upper body and inside shoulder into the corner.

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**windy** · 16-03-2016, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Marshy

Not to me. I'd guess you're gripping the bars too tightly, with too much weight through the bars. Being crossed up like that usually means you're uncomfortable with the front, which would make sense if it feels unstable.

Ironically, people tend to grip the bars too tightly because the front feels uncomfortable, which amplifies the effect, making it feel worse and making you grip the bars even more tightly......

Assuming your suspension is ok (and it may not be!) I'd be working on gripping/locking on with your outside leg, unweighting the bars (weight the pegs instead), and dropping your upper body and inside shoulder into the corner.

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Mate, you have nailed how i am feeling on the bike.
I am not feeling comfortable with the front at all.
So should i be getting my ass of the seat more and gripping with the outside leg on the tank. Or leaving my ass and trying to drop my shoulder etc down further?

**Marshy** · 16-03-2016, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by windy

Or leaving my ass and trying to drop my shoulder etc down further?

This one. It's all about upper body position. Half-an-ass-cheek off the seat is enough. You need the bulk of your body weight (which is carried in the torso) as low down as you can, close to the side of the bike, towards the front. Hug the tank like it's your long-lost girlfriend, then drop the inner shoulder forwards and down. Then take all the weight off the bars.

I still concentrate on unweighting the bars in almost every single corner, every lap. It's not 'natural' and it's hard to do - the natural inclination is to hold on as tight as you can!! Particularly as you push harder, and are closer to the limit.

**windy** · 16-03-2016, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Marshy

This one. It's all about upper body position. Half-an-ass-cheek off the seat is enough. You need the bulk of your body weight (which is carried in the torso) as low down as you can, close to the side of the bike, towards the front. Hug the tank like it's your long-lost girlfriend, then drop the inner shoulder forwards and down. Then take all the weight off the bars.

I still concentrate on unweighting the bars in almost every single corner, every lap. It's not 'natural' and it's hard to do - the natural inclination is to hold on as tight as you can!! Particularly as you push harder, and are closer to the limit.

Ok. All sounds pretty simple haha.
So i am know i am doing half the ass check. I will try and work on dropping my head and shoulders down to the front.

The front end for me has been feeling really unstable. Almost like its sliding and drifting away from me. Esp through t1. Initially i thought it was an old tyre but i still felt it on another tyre. The bike seems to turn in fine but the mid and exit doesnt feel right.

I will work on my body position and see if its that.

Thanks heaps mate

**nigelnobody** · 16-03-2016, 12:33 PM

Looked closer +1 marshies advise.My bad.

**KANGA** · 16-03-2016, 12:55 PM

Out of interest what do you guys think of placing the outside foot flat on the peg around the heel rather then on the toes. I've noticed a fair few riders doing it how ever when I tried I couldn't drive in to the tank since the peg was a smidge low.
I'm considering when I return raising the peg so I can do it properly but will sacrifice comfort a bit as I'll be cramped up some.
Also thinking it may finally solve my ankle cramping/pump problem as I'll be driving in a straight line through the heel much like a dead lift or squat rather then toes there by eliminating the ankle as a pivot point to drive through.

**Negrogrande** · 16-03-2016, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by KANGA

Out of interest what do you guys think of placing the outside foot flat on the peg around the heel rather then on the toes. I've noticed a fair few riders doing it how ever when I tried I couldn't drive in to the tank since the peg was a smidge low.
I'm considering when I return raising the peg so I can do it properly but will sacrifice comfort a bit as I'll be cramped up some.
Also thinking it may finally solve my ankle cramping/pump problem as I'll be driving in a straight line through the heel much like a dead lift or squat rather then toes there by eliminating the ankle as a pivot point to drive through.

I switched to this method my personal feeling is more grip on the tank and easier to modulate the rear brake (left handers)

I always keep the inside foot up

**Mr.Ed** · 16-03-2016, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by KANGA

Out of interest what do you guys think of placing the outside foot flat on the peg around the heel rather then on the toes. I've noticed a fair few riders doing it how ever when I tried I couldn't drive in to the tank since the peg was a smidge low.
I'm considering when I return raising the peg so I can do it properly but will sacrifice comfort a bit as I'll be cramped up some.
Also thinking it may finally solve my ankle cramping/pump problem as I'll be driving in a straight line through the heel much like a dead lift or squat rather then toes there by eliminating the ankle as a pivot point to drive through.

As far as I know, this is actually the right way to do it. I asked many a proper racer and even though I didn't keep tabs I reckon I'm yet to find one who says otherwise.

It all started when Shawn Gilles told me to fix that during one of the Toprider school days. He also said the seat on my ZX6R is waaaaaaaaay too low, even had other instructors come and seat on the bike and ask their opinions and they all said the same thing. It needs to be raised. He told me to use more foam, like at least 5cm more which sounded like a lot but then he said pretty much what you described. I was too cramped on the bike to be able to get a proper foot position.

I could lower the pegs but to be honest, one of the main reasons I raised them, was because I was dragging them... so not an option, really. I might try the OEM seat again and see how it goes. They also mentioned I could benefit from a bum stop as I seat too far back to compensate for being cramped. See, they were nice and didn't say it's just because I suck...

Funny thing is, I was paying attention to the seats on WSBK and even though their bikes are quite different to what you and I have, I noticed a fair amount of bikes with quite thick seat pads. Biggest ones are probably on the factory ZX10Rs but they're not the only ones. Never saw a decent shot of the seats of the factory the ZX6Rs though.

**Turbo** · 16-03-2016, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by KANGA

Out of interest what do you guys think of placing the outside foot flat on the peg around the heel rather then on the toes. I've noticed a fair few riders doing it how ever when I tried I couldn't drive in to the tank since the peg was a smidge low.
I'm considering when I return raising the peg so I can do it properly but will sacrifice comfort a bit as I'll be cramped up some.
Also thinking it may finally solve my ankle cramping/pump problem as I'll be driving in a straight line through the heel much like a dead lift or squat rather then toes there by eliminating the ankle as a pivot point to drive through.

Troy Corser has a lot to say on footwork with some of the above in mind. It's a pretty long video but there is heaps of good info here:

**KANGA** · 16-03-2016, 03:49 PM

Awesome thanks Owen! I'm more then happy to watch a long video, got all the time in the world to kill at the moment lol.

**Kris** · 16-03-2016, 03:50 PM

Not entirely sure the bike will turn entirely based on your moving your weight, Troy suggests the bike will turn as soon as you move your weight and you need to push the bike up to stop it from turning. Seems very different to what i feel or have learnt from other coaches.

Anyone else comment? I agree 1000% on the footwork. Foot always flat on the onside, toes on peg on the inside.

**Turbo** · 16-03-2016, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Kris

Not entirely sure the bike will turn entirely based on your moving your weight, Troy suggests the bike will turn as soon as you move your weight and you need to push the bike up to stop it from turning. Seems very different to what i feel or have learnt from other coaches.

It's counter to the CSS approach and evidence, I agree. I haven't taken Troy's info all as gospel but there are some interesting foods for thought.

**Marshy** · 16-03-2016, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by windy

The front end for me has been feeling really unstable. Almost like its sliding and drifting away from me. Esp through t1. Initially i thought it was an old tyre but i still felt it on another tyre. The bike seems to turn in fine but the mid and exit doesnt feel right.

I'd be checking out the front suspension. That doesn't sound right, or just body position. It might be something more.

**windy** · 16-03-2016, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Marshy

I'd be checking out the front suspension. That doesn't sound right, or just body position. It might be something more.

I had Glenn help set it up. But going to get it done again. Was just about to msg Rob and see if he would be available. Maybe ARDC on the 1st

Thanks heaps Nuck

**jaswib** · 16-03-2016, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by windy

I had Glenn help set it up. But going to get it done again. Was just about to msg Rob and see if he would be available. Maybe ARDC on the 1st

Thanks heaps Nuck

Mmm this interests me i could always do with more setup I'd be down for some Rob time also if he's there that day.

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**Marshy** · 16-03-2016, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by jaswib

Mmm this interests me i could always do with more setup I'd be down for some Rob time also if he's there that day.

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It's better value if there's a few guys for him to assist. You don't lose any benefit; after some detailed initial measuring and adjustment, it's then smaller changes based on feedback which doesn't take too long between sessions, so plenty of time for helping a few guys.

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**zoidberg** · 17-03-2016, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Marshy

It's better value if there's a few guys for him to assist. You don't lose any benefit; after some detailed initial measuring and adjustment, it's then smaller changes based on feedback which doesn't take too long between sessions, so plenty of time for helping a few guys.

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If I'm there on the 1st, (which, hopefully I should be), I will be in for some Rob work on the bike too.

My body position is something I have been working on over the last while, compare here, roughly 12 months apart, at Phillip Island. Much more in the zone and focused in the second image. (newer one is with the new helmet shaped more like a cap, the beanie is 12 months ago)

1915667_10153632610168386_9075757787836253500_n.jpg 12814196_10153632547328386_883805320761512582_n.jpg

**windy** · 17-03-2016, 07:29 AM

Sweet so that 3 of us keen getting rob to help out on the first.
Anyone else?
I will msg him and see if he is available.

**jaswib** · 17-03-2016, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by windy

Sweet so that 3 of us keen getting rob to help out on the first.
Anyone else?
I will msg him and see if he is available.

I don't need much support from him just some minor tweaks (90% happy with the bike)

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**chubb** · 17-03-2016, 08:54 AM

I think there is too much focus on body position... yes its important to a certain extent, but being comfortable on the bike and finding out what works for you is better.. you might be a rider than sits up a bit more (Steve McLeod), or you might be a rider who prefers to elbow drag (Wagner).. you only can go faster once you find the confidence and what works for you...

**Mstevo** · 17-03-2016, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by chubb

I think there is too much focus on body position... yes its important to a certain extent, but being comfortable on the bike and finding out what works for you is better.. you might be a rider than sits up a bit more (Steve McLeod), or you might be a rider who prefers to elbow drag (Wagner).. you only can go faster once you find the confidence and what works for you...

errrrr... you just contradicted yourself, physics require you to move your body weight from side to side as a counterweight along with shoulder/hip alignment to help steer the bike, so it is fundamental, and sometimes you need to take 6 months maybe a year(like you did) to train your body to be comfortable being in that position, that will give you the confidence to go faster as you stated ;-)

It is then very easy to get lazy and let bad habits creep back into your riding style due time off your bike, injury, suspension issues and social track day riding etc etc..like I have :-(

**KANGA** · 17-03-2016, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mr.Ed

I could lower the pegs but to be honest, one of the main reasons I raised them, was because I was dragging them... so not an option, really. I might try the OEM seat again and see how it goes. They also mentioned I could benefit from a bum stop as I seat too far back to compensate for being cramped. See, they were nice and didn't say it's just because I suck...

My issue is I'm a bit of a short ass so when I try flat foot I can't drive my leg in to the peg properly. Basically feels like the foot pegs to far away and when i drive in to it I lose my knee lock from the tank.

Originally Posted by Mstevo

It is then very easy to get lazy and let bad habits creep back into your riding style due time off your bike, injury, suspension issues and social track day riding etc etc..like I have :-(

Thats actually how my body positioning got so bad. Started focusing on lines, references points for braking, throttle opening etc etc. Got a shit load faster but started sitting in the middle of the bike and went a year an a half with out getting my knee down.

**Mr.Ed** · 17-03-2016, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by KANGA

My issue is I'm a bit of a short ass so when I try flat foot I can't drive my leg in to the peg properly. Basically feels like the foot pegs to far away and when i drive in to it I lose my knee lock from the tank.

Thats actually how my body positioning got so bad. Started focusing on lines, references points for braking, throttle opening etc etc. Got a shit load faster but started sitting in the middle of the bike and went a year an a half with out getting my knee down.

How tall are you? I'm not exactly the Empire State building either... 5'10 but hoping to break 6ft once I highside myself into orbit.

**KANGA** · 17-03-2016, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.Ed

How tall are you? I'm not exactly the Empire State building either... 5'10 but hoping to break 6ft once I highside myself into orbit.

5'8 but my previous rearsets didnt go to much higher then stock. I managed to get a set of vortexs on sale so should be able to go significantly higher. I'm using the OEM seat.