Stay Upright 8th-11th Oct

[jaswib]

Marshy how many heat cycles could you safely put a vo2 rear through you have me thinking about flipping the rear now.

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[Marshy]

So it should be said that flipping isn't for everyone. If you have a tendency to get high wear on the 'drive' section of the tyre, rather than very even wear over the whole surface, then it's not for you. Once you get a flattened section an inch in from the edge of the tyre, then it's not gonna work out great. The issue isn't the flat spot, it's the raised 'lips' on either edge of the flat bit. You get used to it on the left, then you flip the tyre and suddenly where you had lots of even grip on the right side of the tyre, you now have these ridges. So you start to drive out of a turn on the section of the tyre leading up to the ridge, then the tyre 'falls off' the ridge (into the flattened spot) and it's like riding off the edge of the tyre. Instant no-grip, and there's your highside. I've seen it a lot.

So the trick to successful flipping is to do it before the tyre shows appreciable wear, and again assuming no flattened section on the drive-section of the tyre. As soon as you have a flat bit, don't do it. I'll try to find some pics (or draw a diagram).

[Marshy]

Marshy how many heat cycles could you safely put a vo2 rear through you have me thinking about flipping the rear now.

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I get up to 6 days out of one, but I flip it each day (so that's a LOT of tyre changes). It really really really helps to have a tyre machine.

[jaswib]

I get your drift Marshy i have that exact wear your talking about so no flipping for me luckily i got that spare off you last time.

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[Marshy]

Curious Nick if given your race pace v say average red pace if you have flipped to make through race weekend ?
For me was def "contributing" factor for my highside on turn 3
Found myself underpassing and asking too much of the tyre on litrebike no TC on exit full throttle
Was expensive and painfull exercise i dont care to repeat.

Forgot to quote you last time, so here it is again, complete with a spiffy diagram I just drew:

So it should be said that flipping isn't for everyone. If you have a tendency to get high wear on the 'drive' section of the tyre, rather than very even wear over the whole surface, then it's not for you. Once you get a flattened section an inch in from the edge of the tyre, then it's not gonna work out great. The issue isn't the flat spot, it's the raised 'lips' on either edge of the flat bit. You get used to it on the left, then you flip the tyre and suddenly where you had lots of even grip on the right side of the tyre, you now have these ridges. So you start to drive out of a turn on the section of the tyre leading up to the ridge, then the tyre 'falls off' the ridge (into the flattened spot) and it's like riding off the edge of the tyre. Instant no-grip, and there's your highside. I've seen it a lot.

So the trick to successful flipping is to do it before the tyre shows appreciable wear, and again assuming no flattened section on the drive-section of the tyre. As soon as you have a flat bit, don't do it.

[zoidberg]

Forgot to quote you last time, so here it is again, complete with a spiffy diagram I just drew:

So it should be said that flipping isn't for everyone. If you have a tendency to get high wear on the 'drive' section of the tyre, rather than very even wear over the whole surface, then it's not for you. Once you get a flattened section an inch in from the edge of the tyre, then it's not gonna work out great. The issue isn't the flat spot, it's the raised 'lips' on either edge of the flat bit. You get used to it on the left, then you flip the tyre and suddenly where you had lots of even grip on the right side of the tyre, you now have these ridges. So you start to drive out of a turn on the section of the tyre leading up to the ridge, then the tyre 'falls off' the ridge (into the flattened spot) and it's like riding off the edge of the tyre. Instant no-grip, and there's your highside. I've seen it a lot.

So the trick to successful flipping is to do it before the tyre shows appreciable wear, and again assuming no flattened section on the drive-section of the tyre. As soon as you have a flat bit, don't do it.

That is some great advice Nick, thanks. I had the flat spot and could definitely feel it, but I guess my drive section is different on right handers. The ridge became less defined over a couple of sessions and wore nicely both sides. The bike also seemed to spin up less after the first session on right handers. Again, very happy with swapping. Can't afford tyre machine, but like to drop a 6 pack of to my mechanic every now and then, seems to grease the wheels of industry so to speak

Amazing picture, you have a talent.

[Marshy]

Amazing picture, you have a talent.

It's always nice to be appreciated

It's a fine line with the ridge issue. Mostly, getting rid of a small ridge and to even out the tyre wear is exactly why you spin a tyre in the first place! It's just being aware of the (potential) issue. I personally have never had a problem with it, but others have high-sided big-time, mostly in the first session on the flipped tyre. I do notice that if the ridge is too pronounced - or, and this is important, you've basically worn away most of the 'grip rubber' on the left side of the tyre - then flipping will just transfer the problem to the right-hand corners.

Like I said earlier, it's ideal to do it every day of use. Outside of that parameter (and taking into consideration all else mentioned above), it's your life on the line, so use your own judgement wisely.

[Carl-52]

Great day at SMSP on saturday, digging the music in the tt garage hahaha. Cheers Sicko for having a play in the last session, I can definitely tell where I need to work on lines. Otherwise it was Pbs for me after not being at smsp for a loooooooooong time. bring on St George. I think ill go even faster. Mods on the bike were sweeeet, felt like it was on rails and was just confidence inspiring, plus it may have a few more sneaky hp

[Turbo]

Pleasure, mate!! You were looking very good out there. Well done on the PB!!

[Kris]

Something HAS to be done about the groups. Having a chat with a few other riders, all struggled with excessively slow traffic in the Red group. When you decide to park a bike mid corner, you've gotta expect danger when people are approaching 30-40km/hr faster than you.

The case on both Saturday & Sunday.

[Carl-52]

I didn't have a problem in Red group on Saturday. There were a few slower guys but you could see they were slow and had time to plan a move. I lost a few fast laps because of traffic but even then it wasn't horrific. I quite enjoyed the overtaking challenge and I had to put a few moves on in interesting places.

[Turbo]

Something HAS to be done about the groups. Having a chat with a few other riders, all struggled with excessively slow traffic in the Red group. When you decide to park a bike mid corner, you've gotta expect danger when people are approaching 30-40km/hr faster than you.

The case on both Saturday & Sunday.

Agreed!! I managed to get a fluke spot in green after someone cancelled. Luckily a space opened up in Red after rego and before we went out.
When I went to swap wrist bands tho, there were maybe 10 names wanting to change from Red to Green!
They know full well they're in the wrong group (and I suspect hate getting buzzed) but chance it to get moved on the day.
For me the speed difference isn't a big deal, if it's consistent. Some people were running bikes in but they were easy to avoid
It's more a case of lines being unpredictable and as you say, grabbing a handful of brake mid corner!!
What's the answer tho?

[Kris]

Carl, depends on your pace. If you're doing 1.45s you wont find an issue.

Sicko - I'd say first lets scrap the lunch break. Theres plenty of time for lunch! Theres over 40minutes between sessions to eat. If you have half a brain, you're eating and drinking all day long to keep your energy up.

Start a little earlier on track, only needs to be 15minutes, finish a little later - overall more track time, allowing for another group , above and beyond red or something between green and red.

Be great if Paul can start to limit the morning briefings to what is important and relevant, theres another 15minutes there.

Bring back a working version of the timing /transponder thing and put people into the right groups. If they book the red and are doing 1.50s knowing full well they shouldnt have been there, then make them sit the session out until a spot opens in the right group.

Its not fair on people who pay the same money to be lumpt with people doing MUCH slower times. There should be cutoffs for the times you need to set to enter each group.

Lap time is the ONLY method to accurately put people into the right groups.

[Turbo]

MEGA didn't use the lunch break but they often seemed to run long with pick ups etc. I also believe there are noise restrictions before 9am and light becomes an issue after 5pm, in the winter.
Whilst it'd be nice to have clear track sessions, I guess the organisers would argue that a 'ride day' is not for chasing lap times whereas a private practice is. The reality of an overbooked weekend is tho, that it can be very dangerous with such a range of abilities booked into one session.
I've noticed tho that the problem does seem to go away on weekdays, with emptier groups free for people to book correctly.
Do you know if MEGA ever had the timing thing work? It was a good idea but I understand it just didn't work.

[Turbo]

Be great if Paul can start to limit the morning briefings to what is important and relevant, theres another 15minutes there.

THAT was a joke on Saturday!

[Turbo]

allowing for another group , above and beyond red or something between green and red.

Is the problem further down tho? White group always books up fastest.. What if there were another group down there?
Would that free up people to book into the right group further up? As I said, I think some people really dislike getting passed at speed.

[nigelnobody]

Well put Kris
Followed carl52 for a lap while scrubbing in new tyre,ride very well mate,predictable smooth lines.
From my time on mega staff saw at least 3 people persisting in red that have been told numerous times by paul to reconsider their booking.
Lunch breaks are for flaggies,overall much improved vibe and proffessionaly run day.

[Kris]

The issue is safety - bad passing, slower riders parking bikes, throwing on anchors, changing lines , these are all safety issues that need to be respected. Placing riders in the same group who are 10 seconds faster is unsafe.

Thats the crux of the issue - I had no issue with slower riders, I did have an issue when they wash off so much speed they should be in yellow. Thats dangerous because when you go in red group you assume that they are a fast track day rider or a racer.The moves I saw on both days were not red-esque.

Issues aside, Stay up right days are generally ran so so much better. More facilities, features, more friendly/helpful staff !

[Kris]

Is the problem further down tho? White group always books up fastest.. What if there were another group down there?
Would that free up people to book into the right group further up? As I said, I think some people really dislike getting passed at speed.

No, the issue is the typical bell curve model you can place riders into. You will always have more new/novice/intermediate riders than experienced and or racers. Yet, the numbers per group are the same.

Having large numbers of red group riders, only encourages riders of yellow or green pace to enter into red despite not being even remotely close to the pace.

45 White, 45 Yellow, 40 Green, 20 Red?

Maybe limit Red to MA Race license holders only?

[simonr]

the lunch break is a waste of time, no denying that, it hasn't been an issue so far because of the roving marshal and no red flags and the longer days. wait until its the middle of winter and there is limited light and more crashes with a cold track. then the 30 minute lunch break seems like a complete waste of the best part of the day. but the flaggies need a break though, without them we don't ride.

weekends are always a shit fight, try being on a 600 and getting nobs on 1000s holding you up everywhere, then passing you back down the straight.

weekdays are the key, there were 7 bikes in red group on Thursday!! it was tops!

[Turbo]

45 White, 45 Yellow, 40 Green, 20 Red?

Same end result I guess.. I think they're only allowed <40 on GP layout tho.

[Turbo]

weekdays are the key, there were 7 bikes in red group on Thursday!! it was tops!

IDEAL!!

[Carl-52]

You'll never get a reserved red group for MA licence holders only and you will never get a reduced number of bikes in Red because it reduces the profits of the day. The only way is to stop people from having the choice to move groups during the day. You must book in the group you belong in or the one below if you're unsure. You will not be allowed to move down, only possibly move up a group if you are visually too fast and its dangerous. But then comes the factor of ego and falsely believing that you are fast enough for Red group.

Another option is to have to be observed when you want to move up to red. Only people who have been observed and approved can book into Red group. You must be observed in green group to have smooth, predictable lines and decent pace. This requires a nominated riding marshal/instructor who knows what they're doing and a booking system to accommodate it.

But even then, if you are soooooo fast that you cant see slower riders coming... Are you the danger or is it the slower rider? I can only think of 2 places where visibility is impossible at high closing speeds. T1 and T8 Everywhere else there is ample time to plan a move.

[Stu23]

Biggest problem I had on the weekend ( besides the quick shifter issues ) was having Dicks on litre bikes parking them in the corner then not even firing them out ! sooo many times wasnt funny.... you get past them, round the outside, underneath them only for them to goo weeee its the straight lets goooooooo. Not every litre bike Ill admit but there was a few.. quite frustrating and im an easy going kinda guy hehe

[Stu23]

Oh and an awesome garage just perfect... Thanks to all that took carl under their wings for a last session play, you know who you are ..... I know he totally loved it

[nigelnobody]

All good points carl,hopefully will improve with feedback.
Needs to be limit on flouro tho...
Those wheels had me in somesort of hypnotic trance

[Stu23]

i went behind him for a whole session to vid his lines etc, your not wrong about those wheels haha i was like oooh hey ok were on track ooh heres a corner........ fuck concentrate !!!

[Carl-52]

Its tactics I tell ya, pure sneaky tactics... LOL painted them like that for mum to be able to pick me on track, I think it worked.

[Marshy]

Its tactics I tell ya, pure sneaky tactics...

I actually had that thought whilst following you one session - in a hypnotic trance - that it might be a good tactic for the racebike, to put off people following

[Carl-52]

It has distracted a couple of people and lost them the opportunity to make a pass. The only thing is, if you cock up everyone will have seen it.

[Stu23]

not like you cock up much !!! tumbleweed !

[Wolfie57]

Kris I know what you mean but that was nowhere near the slowest red group I have been in and I reckon the speed difference considering it was full wasn't as bad as normal, bizarrely the most dangerous day I have EVER had in years of riding was an ARDC day back in Sept where there was a couple of guys on 80's or something equally as slow. Coming out of turn 12 they were around the 200m marker and I was still hitting them mid corner, 3 times I almost hit them as the speed differential was ridiculous. It wasn't their fault but clearly highlighted an issue with the ARDC format.
I agree that in the last year or two as track days have become more popular people are entering red group because the intermediate ones are full, its dangerous and getting worse but can't see what they can do really. In the UK one of the track day companies put transponders on the bikes for the 1st session and then moved anyone who was clearly in the wrong group. MEGA would never do something like that but the Stay Upright guys seem open to ideas and have even come into the garages asking for feedback which I think is a refreshing change. Rather than being made to feel like they are doing us a favour by letting us attend, we are finally be treated like paying customers and getting treated like adults!

With regards to a lunch break if it makes the marshals more attentive and happy then I'm all for it!!!

PS TT garage for the 2nd November.......

[Kris]

Yep, ill make the suggestions. Was going to call Warwick actually - something has to change..

[Linden]

couple of guys on 80's or something equally as slow. Coming out of turn 12 they were around the 200m marker and I was still hitting them mid corner, 3 times I almost hit them as the speed differential was ridiculous.

If they book the red and are doing 1.50s knowing full well they shouldnt have been there, then make them sit the session out until a spot opens in the right group.

Its not fair on people who pay the same money to be lumpt with people doing MUCH slower times.

First I'm not talking here about the guy on a litre bike doing 1:55s

So where do you guys suggest people on smaller bikes ride ... If you think its bad being in Red with some slower (on line bike) consider this
- in a 20min session a 20sec speed diff (lets say 1:40 and 2:00 for easy maths) will have the fast guy see the slow guy every 5 / 6 laps ie 2 to 3 times in a session
- if however your top speed is say 200km/h you'll loose around 10sec on the front straight and 2 sec 9-10 - and same probably 6.5 - 8 that 14 sec a lap now if your with a Litre bike of a similar (or slower lap time) your stuffed EVERY LAP you'll be mugged on the straight and held up in corners - REPEAT EVERY LAP

[Turbo]

So where do you guys suggest people on smaller bikes ride ...

South circuit??

[Linden]

South circuit??

Don't mind it - actually if they copied 10 11 12 to be on the exit of 9 (half the length of the main straight and no straight 9 - 10) it would be atop track

How this sound you need to qualify for different bikes/groups using say a bunch of 300Ningas
In green
1000cc needs < 2:00
600cc needs < 2:05
In Red
1000cc needs < 1:55
600cc needs < 1:57

[Ruckos87]

Can't they just stipulate you must book into the same group as your previous day. Then ask to be "assess" and moved? As timing isn't "allowed"


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[Turbo]

Can't they just stipulate you must book into the same group as your previous day. Then ask to be "assess" and moved? As timing isn't "allowed"


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That actually sounds like a REALLY good way of doing it!

[KANGA]

Needs to be limit on flouro tho...

Whoa whoa whoa whoaaaaa!! .... Lets not say things we can't take back!!
Apologies to anyone I held up on saturday. Was suffering from a serious lack of fitness and trying to brush of the cobwebs from my two crashes on the state titles. T3 wasn't too bad but T9 had me mentally f*cked right up until the last session.

[Nelso]

How this sound you need to qualify for different bikes/groups using say a bunch of 300Ningas
In green
1000cc needs < 2:00
600cc needs < 2:05
In Red
1000cc needs < 1:55
600cc needs < 1:57

These times would be way too slow in my opinion. When you have guys doing 1:33's and 1:34's, someone doing 1:55's on a 1000 is just plain dangerous. If you are not doing consistent 47's to 48's on a 1000 or 48's to 49's on a 600, you have no place being in red group in my opinion (that's still a 16 second spread in times). There are plenty of riders who do 1:51's and under on Ninja 300's, shit, I even do 1:52's on my 1980 RD350LC on 18 inch road tyres, so there is no excuse for someone on a 1000cc modern bike to be doing 1:55's in red. If they ride at that pace, they should be in green and if they can't manage 2 minute laps, they should be in yellow in my opinion; it's just too dangerous otherwise.

[Nelso]

The half hour break is more for the staff running the day than the flaggies. Because Stay Upright are running it like a traditional business and the staff are working (by the book) for wages, they have to provide a lunch break as per their award. MEGA staffed the days very differently, with most staff being there on a voluntary basis and in return, were allowed access to ride on the track, so the day could continue to run without a lunch break as they weren't officially 'employed'.

Stay Upright would still be able to run the day without a break in proceedings, but it would mean staggering staff (and probably hiring more staff), so they could keep operations continuing, which would increase their costs further. The fact that they are paying all of their staff a wage, I would think their overheads are already way higher than MEGA, which can only mean less profits. I know the half filled days used to run at a loss for MEGA and they would make up for them with the packed out days, so I can only imagine how much the low numbers last Thursday and Friday would have stung them.

[nigelnobody]

Was wondering if you were following this one Kanga

[Marshy]

Needs to be limit on flouro tho...

Whoa whoa whoa whoaaaaa!! .... Lets not say things we can't take back!!

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHHAA!!!

[Phat3R]

It's a business that's run to make a profit.

Assuming a bell curve spread of riders for the day, that puts more people in yellow and green and less in white and red. Green's probably going to have more than yellow due to ego factor.

Now as MA dictate max number of places per session there is always going to be a trade off between who "should be in red" and who "could be in red to make a profit / break even". The operator would prefer to fill every group to maximise their return / cover costs.

Now to reduce places in Red it could be charged at a higher rate, so to reduce 40 riders to 20 that would be twice the price? Would keep out the slow greens / yellows, but also piss off a lot of regular reds.

Also worth MA reconsidering the max numbers allowed in a session as surely the limit is just a simple safety metric. One could argue that the metric is too simple and they should consider the safety in a manner other then total numbers per group? It could include speed spread of the group, how often they bunching up, lapped, frustration with 1000cc corner parkers. Solid metrics would be helpful, and that would begin with timing?

[Linden]

These times would be way too slow in my opinion. When you have guys doing 1:33's and 1:34's, someone doing 1:55's on a 1000 is just plain dangerous. If you are not doing consistent 47's to 48's on a 1000 or 48's to 49's on a 600, you have no place being in red group in my opinion (that's still a 16 second spread in times). There are plenty of riders who do 1:51's and under on Ninja 300's, shit, I even do 1:52's on my 1980 RD350LC on 18 inch road tyres, so there is no excuse for someone on a 1000cc modern bike to be doing 1:55's in red. If they ride at that pace, they should be in green and if they can't manage 2 minute laps, they should be in yellow in my opinion; it's just too dangerous otherwise.

No the times are their qualifying time on a NINGA 300 I recon if your good for 1:55 on a 300 you should be at <1:42 on 1000

[Wolfie57]

I agree with Plumb - simple and easy. You are registered to the last group you booked in and if you want to move you ask to be assessed (unless of course you are moved anyway for being too slow or too quick). Not hard to manage or monitor and keeps everyone happy and safer.

[CBR42]

Be great if Paul can start to limit the morning briefings to what is important and relevant, theres another 15minutes there.

I did a day at Phillip Island not long ago and the briefing covered the same stuff but did seem to be over in half the time.There was a lot less fart-arseing about waiting for dawdlers though.Maybe thats where a lot of the perceived time goes at EC?

[Marshy]

I did a day at Phillip Island not long ago and the briefing covered the same stuff but did seem to be over in half the time.There was a lot less fart-arseing about waiting for dawdlers though.Maybe thats where a lot of the perceived time goes at EC?

Nah, it's that Paul says each 'safety' point about 5 times, in slightly different words, every time, often with examples. Takes forever.

[Wolfie57]

Not including the same corny jokes and the fact that someone crashed yesterday and admitted that they were dehydrated etc etc! Always going take a while when you love the sound of your own voice. ARDC takes about 5 mins and Wakefield about 10mins once he remembers what the difference is between pit entry and pit exit!

[KANGA]

Was wondering if you were following this one Kanga

Yeah Briefing took ages. Its inside now though which will be good in the summer heat. I don't know how it went for so long. At least he didn't start rambling the dangers of each corner like he used to though. That was rediculous.