St George handicap replacement

[Marshy]

Ok TT brains trust... we need to put our thinking caps on! Background: I was at the St George committee meeting last night, and the whole vexed issue of the handicap came up again (for a lengthy discussion, actually). The short version is that nobody wants the handicap system, but they definitely want some way of ensuring that they don't get a string of people on exactly the same points total at the end of the year. This has happened before, and there wasn't a good way to resolve the situation - essentially 2 guys in different classes won every race in their respective classes for the whole year.

Some more info: The points scoring allocates separate points to each grade within a class, as well as each class. There need to be a minimum number of entries for a class to accrue championship points (not defined, but it's usually touted as 10 minimum per class).

So resutls for the meet look something like this. This is for the Clubsport 600 class, and as you can see A&B grade are scored together, but otherwise each grade get allocated their own points (so you are only racing for points against those in your grade).

[Marshy]

The aim here is to get rid of the handicap system, so that the outcome of each round is known on the day, not weeks or months later. Also the handicap heavily penalises those that don't finish the 3rd race (or whichever race is deemed the handicap race), as there are double points on offer for one race.

But, they want to ensure that we don't have a tie (or ties) at the end of the year! Not just for first, but down the line.

Thoughts?? How do other sports achieve this?

[Stu23]

Been there , had this discussion, and yes I loath the handicap races...

Personally speaking I don't give a toss if two people end up winning and sharing the prize, whats the problem with that, or is it that there aren't enough trophys to go around..

Countback usually sorts it out....... if you go back far enough then the results should be able to be sorted, race result.. qualifying even, should be something to distinguish

OR !!

Do away completely with the overall championship ( which really doesn't make much sense ! as ive never raced in a club that had one ) and put the prizes into the individual classes... that would seem to sort out the problem

[Mstevo]

Looking at the KISS principal

Points for qualifying position?
leading laps points, in class...(probably to messy to sort out)

[Negrogrande]

Looking at the KISS principal

Points for qualifying position?
(probably to messy to sort out)

this.
point for pole setter each round, it's not a Tissot but not bad either

[Marshy]

Do away completely with the overall championship ( which really doesn't make much sense ! as ive never raced in a club that had one ) and put the prizes into the individual classes... that would seem to sort out the problem

This was actually my proposal to the club last night. I didn't want to pre-empt the discussion by mentioning it. I was thinking about splitting the prizes up between the classes, with the top prizes going to the Unlimited and 600cc classes (not clubsport), to 1. get the best/fastest/highest budget riders in the 'top' classes, not running clubsport for the championship points (eg ME!! And others). And 2. you're then only competing with the guys in your class, not guys in different classes where you have no control over the outcome.

Their arguments against this were that: 1. The current system gives a new D-grader on, say, a 250 proddy in as good a chance to take out the top prize and the club championship as an A-grader on a zillion dollar superbike. Apparently this happened once before and it was well received.

Another suggestion I've got is to continue the overall club champion trophy system, but not have the prizes attached to that championship. Just the Arthur Blizzard memorial trophy, and a warm fuzzy feeling.

Personally speaking I don't give a toss if two people end up winning and sharing the prize, whats the problem with that, or is it that there aren't enough trophys to go around..

The tie that one year took months and many angry arguments to resolve, apparently, and they never want a repeat of that. I think the issue is that if both have won every race, and qualified on pole every time, in their respective classes, even a countback won't split them.

[senator8]

I agree, that it would be better to have winnings spread through the respective classes and winning your class gets the same outcome as other class wins. What would it matter if a new d grader on a 250 won and a grader on a Superbike. Accolades and prize outcome would be the same? As it stands now, in asbk or FX you chase your class. In St George your a secondary winner if you oy beat your competitors but not someone else's results in a possibly completely non related class!

[Stu23]

One other thing....Id like people to mull over

This whole A,B C and D thing, what is this all about really, If we are talking club racing that is..

In the UK ( sorry to keep harping back ) when you started racing your were a rookie ( Novice with an orange bib) you had your own championship to go for in each class 600s 1000s etc etc This was your D grade here in NSW

Everyone else raced in the same races, no A B or C grades,just everyone together for the class championship.

This simplified it, but also made it a little tougher when you left the Novice grade ( after 10 race wekends ) ......

Oh and anyone who turned up with a International licence was given a hard time (which is like your A grade) !!! lol

[Team Zero]

For my money I just want the a warm inner glow of racing on a relatively even playing field. And the possibility of a $2 trophy. How this is achieved in practice is tricky. I don't want to compete against A graders and ex pros for said trophy. So dropping the championship points from the handicap and possibly excluding A&B graders might leave it open to first timers and those that don't finish up the front. I certainly don't have the answer but at the end of the day it is entry level racing that should be easy to access for everyone. That is more of a rant than a solution but I'm sure we can come up with something.

[Stu23]

Agreed, it is why we had novice races, great fun, all the same level and enjoyment for those new to the sport... after that, it was a much bigger pond

I was explained the Handicap was also used to give new racers a warm fuzzy feeling if they did well !, hence why I like the Novice idea, but without the handicap race

[Jashdown]

What I wanna know is why there were A graders in the D grade class the other week? Jean-Christophe cuts laps faster than almost any other rider out there, including the A graders, Graham McCarthy is the same. What are they doing in D grade, unless they are exceptional talents and this is their first ever season of racing, I can't think of any reason for them to be there.

[DisPlaCeD]

I believe that currently there are progressive grids... if it was a TRUE handicapping system the grid would start with the qualifying positions and then usually the slow will go to the front, fast to the back, or however the handicap works. NOT after all the racing is said and done and then it's a bizarre points battle.

Agree to ditch the Overall Club Championship and then tada, it should negates the points tie that couldn't be won on a count back. Just Class Championships... I still think providing an official is poo, but it is only club racing, after all...

[Stu23]

Good Point........ When I 1st arrived and raced with st George, I was re graded after 1 bloody race meeting !! so yes, not sure whats the go with those riders mentioned

[Phat3R]

What I wanna know is why there were A graders in the D grade class the other week? Jean-Christophe cuts laps faster than almost any other rider out there, including the A graders, Graham McCarthy is the same. What are they doing in D grade, unless they are exceptional talents and this is their first ever season of racing, I can't think of any reason for them to be there.

Trophy hunting I think it's called when riders are obviously outside their class. Yeah JC in D is a joke!

[Phat3R]

One other thing....Id like people to mull over

This whole A,B C and D thing, what is this all about really, If we are talking club racing that is..

In the UK ( sorry to keep harping back ) when you started racing your were a rookie ( Novice with an orange bib) you had your own championship to go for in each class 600s 1000s etc etc This was your D grade here in NSW

Everyone else raced in the same races, no A B or C grades,just everyone together for the class championship.

This simplified it, but also made it a little tougher when you left the Novice grade ( after 10 race wekends ) ......

Oh and anyone who turned up with a International licence was given a hard time (which is like your A grade) !!! lol

I like the sound of that system.

[Mr.Ed]

Agree with the 1-championship for all deal. Also, if they're too worried about having to put more money into prizes for other classes maybe suggest something that would work both ways. I.e. 50% off the entry fees for the next season or whatever... this way they get ppl interested in racing/winning in their series and ensure they winners will be back next year. All without actually having to put real $ into it. Hell, they might even call it a 'winner's sponsorship' and claim it on tax. It's seriously not that hard to make the whole thing better.

And I LOVE the idea of a beginners championship. It doesn't even have to be called D-grade/novice or whatever if it hurts anyone's ego... just something for anyone who hasn't raced more than 5 meetings at the beginning of the year.

[Marty]

So how does the grading work? Do they put you in a grade or go you ask to be reviewed? I find it odd that some of the fastest guys are in D how is that possible?

[Mr.Ed]

So how does the grading work?

Simple answers is: It doesn't

[chubb]

What I wanna know is why there were A graders in the D grade class the other week? Jean-Christophe cuts laps faster than almost any other rider out there, including the A graders, Graham McCarthy is the same. What are they doing in D grade, unless they are exceptional talents and this is their first ever season of racing, I can't think of any reason for them to be there.

McCarthy is an A grader from Ireland.

I don't know about grasshopper

[chubb]

So how does the grading work? Do they put you in a grade or go you ask to be reviewed? I find it odd that some of the fastest guys are in D how is that possible?

Yeah don't even know how they do gradings.
Meant to be based on lap times and experience

[Marshy]

Yeah don't even know how they do gradings.
Meant to be based on lap times and experience

The grading system is badly broken and due for an overhaul. It is 'being looked at' by MA this year, but there's no timetable or plan for changing it yet.

However, the simple principle is that you start out as a D grader, and get moved up at the end of each year, depending on your performance and experience. JC is new to road racing (long history in dirt bikes tho), and as mentioned the crazy Irishman is simply in the wrong grade but he's also new to road racing in Australia, so gets put in D. The principle is also that you don't get re-graded during the year, but this should really be changed IMHO if you are clearly outside your grade.

[chubb]

There is a possibility that you can also skip a grade. It is possible that McCarthy becomes a B grader next year.

[Marshy]

True that. Everyone look forward to getting an envelope in the mail from MNSW congratulating them on their regrading soon!

[chubb]

So I can stay in D grade for 2 years right???

Hahaha :p

[Nelso]

The other problem with the grading is the two types of licenses. There are plenty of riders that ride in FX with AASA licenses for a while and then come back to MA events as D graders. I know a couple that are thinking of racing in St George Clubsport next year that will absolutely clean up and will most likely come in as D graders for this reason.

It's a sure sign that the system is messed up when you have D graders beating A and B graders.

[Nelso]

So I can stay in D grade for 2 years right???

Hahaha :p

Not a chance. You will be going to C grade, just like me.

[Nelso]

McCarthy is an A grader from Ireland.

I don't know about grasshopper

It was Grasshopper's 3rd roadrace meet.

[Nelso]

The aim here is to get rid of the handicap system, so that the outcome of each round is known on the day, not weeks or months later. Also the handicap heavily penalises those that don't finish the 3rd race (or whichever race is deemed the handicap race), as there are double points on offer for one race.

But, they want to ensure that we don't have a tie (or ties) at the end of the year! Not just for first, but down the line.

Thoughts?? How do other sports achieve this?

In weight lifting, the lightest lifter wins in the event of a tie so maybe we could do the opposite.

To break the deadlock: bonus points the heavier the rider
bonus points the older the rider
bonus points the older the bike model
deduct bonus points for every modification made to the bike

Since each of these things give someone an advantage over other riders, it seams fair to use them to break the deadlock.

[Marshy]

In weight lifting, the lightest lifter wins in the event of a tie so maybe we could do the opposite.

To break the deadlock: bonus points the heavier the rider
bonus points the older the rider
bonus points the older the bike model
deduct bonus points for every modification made to the bike

Since each of these things give someone an advantage over other riders, it seams fair to use them to break the deadlock.

I like it!!

[Stu23]

Ill do good on all of them excellent

[Stu23]

oh hold on .... you need to be winning to have this problem doh ! never mind

[Nelso]

oh hold on .... you need to be winning to have this problem doh ! never mind

Yep, that puts me out too.

[senator8]

On the subject of grading. I believe that next season I should rightfully compete as a C grader under MA in club racing. But at the end of last year after racing for less than 6 months I was graded C. I, at the time did not even have a MA lic only AASA in which I was correctly D grade.

Below is the communication I had with the club. Club in red myself in blue. I have removed the names, as I am not blaming anyone or having a go. Just thought it may interest others who encounter the same. I still don't understand how many D graders are still D graders after so long.

Dear Sir/Madam,
In reference to this document http://www.stgeorgemcc.com/pdfs/road...ary%202013.pdf

If I am to compete in the 2013 season with St George club, I would like to compete as a 'D' grade rider. I cannot comprehend how I could be considered a c grade competitor based on either my times or results in the short time I have been racing.

Aside from riding for a couple of years in the mid 90s, I have only been riding for a little over 18mths, started doing track days in March 1012, and my first event in June 2012. So riding on track 9 months and racing 6 months. I have been working hard to improve, but find the grading to 'c' quite demotivating as I am not yet even close to competitive as d grader. My most recent race event was a last place in 5 out of 6 races in a field of 47!

Please change my grading to D for the 2013 year and allow me at least to do a season in my correct grade.

Your sincerely

Rick
Hi Rick,
The re-gradings are done/set by the NSW Road Race Committee not St George MCC. If you wish to challenge your re-grading you will need to contact the MNSW Office who will pass it on to the NSW Road Race Committee.
I can advise you however, that according to the NSW Road Race By Laws, the re-grading from D to C is not dependent upon lap times nor race results. It is purely based on the fact that a rider has had "racing experience", meaning has entered and contested a few race meetings and understands how a race meeting runs.
Please note that at a St George RR meeting C and D grade run together.

Regards,

Hi
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Especially over the break.

The reason I sent my request to this address is because the St George grading document says "If you believe a grade to be incorrect, please contact us by email at stgmembers@pnc.com.au"

I understand that C & D grades are run together but they are scored and awarded separately. I don't understand how MNSW can grade me when I do not hold a MA license, and why my St George grading is different to my AASA lic which is D grade.

I think that the list is incorrect. Who do I contact?

Kind regards

Rick


Hi Rick,
As mentioned earlier, the grading from D to C is done when a rider has gained "race experience", not results.

Accordingly your C grading is correct.

Regards,

Hi
Thanks for looking into it. Still doesn't make sense to me. Friends who have entered many more events than I are still D grade. And I have entered 2 pcra meetings, 1 St george and 1 fx. As I expressed earlier, it is disappointing to not have a chance of being even remotely competitive and race against riders of the same experience.
I will apply for MA license this year. Do I do it through the club?

Thanks

Rick
Hi Rick,
Sorry I didn't have better news for you.

We are aware that your plight has highlighted the inconsistencies and we will be addressing them.

Regards

[chubb]

There probably will be still inconsistencies across the board with overseas riders or A graders with AASA lic wanting to come over to MA..

They should remain A grade and not start with D grade.

[Marshy]

Yep, that sucks, Rick. Many people have experienced the same or similar situations. The email from StG is technically accurate but not really how it works. As I understand it, the club prepares the list and forwards it to the RR committee (which also has club members on the committee), who rubber stamp it. MNSW then send out the certificates.

MA voted earlier this year to 'review' the grading system. There were two people nominated to look into it. They will apparently report back next year sometime. There wasn't even a direction to come back with a proposal specifically.

Frankly, it's not rocket surgery. It should simply be based on objective, measurable criteria, NOT the current subjective, whimsical system of 'at the discretion of a club committee member'. There should simply be lap-time brackets for grades, possibly based on machinery. And there should be three grades, not four (VIC only has A, B, and C). Plus a Novice category. This whole 'level of experience' stuff is total crap! You should race against people of your speed, not your experience. Times from all races (AASA, or MA) are all online now, so it is easy to check times.

Novice: Never raced (in any form of motorsport!) before; you only a novice for 3 race meetings maximum, and you get moved up regardless after winning a Novice-class race meet - even if it's your first ever race meet. Novices race separately to everyone else, and are not split by capacity (all Novices race on track together, separately from other grades). This allows people that have just started to actually win a race by crossing the line first, which is something that will hook people for life (it did for me). You get regraded at the end of your 3 race meets into whichever grade you fit, based on laptimes.

C grade: Same as currently. Lap time bracket, say, 1:50+ at EC and equivalent at other tracks.

B grade: 1:40 to 1:50 at EC (and equivalent).

A grade: sub-1:40.

My $0.02

[Mr.Ed]

As a n00b I like the idea of the 4 grades... The bracket between 1:40-1:50 sounds like a small 10second difference but in reality those are the tougher 10secs for most riders. I've only done 2 races meetings and only one of them was with MA... and I'd be thrown straight into B group next year according to your suggestion. Sure, you could say I'd be given 2 more races in the Novice group but I'd still be skipping C and if you like finishing first let me tell right now, I just kissed that chance goodbye if I have to ride in the B grade described above.

To me, 4 grades gives a lot more motivation to race than finishing first in one of the 3 races you'd be allowed in Novice. IMHO, there should be both... Novice for 3 races and then automatically grade you according to your lap times/speed. My suggestion for brackets would be (and this is for 600s I'd like to clarify):

D grade: 1:58+
C grade: 1:47 to 1:57
B grade: 1:40 to 1:46
A grade: sub 1:40.

And you'd have to have more than 5 laps on a bracket before you get bumped. Otherwise you get one lucky lap following a faster rider during qually and next thing you know you've changed grades.

[Mstevo]

In Victoria you start at "C" grade
as explained by MNSW correspondence "D" grade is for novices, however any body wanting to race should have to declare any racing experience and any previous grades held.
My first year was 2 races and I was fighting for last place, the next year I was in "C" grade and from memory I'm still a "C" grader in FX, although I refuse to ride outside my MNSW "B" grade when racing inter series or interstate

BTW the Mexicans/Preston MCC don't do progressive grids, that makes racing interesting

[Mstevo]

The trouble with time grading is it's bike dependent

[Mr.Ed]

You can just take 3secs off and do it for thousands and I reckon you wouldn't be too far off...

[senator8]

The trouble with time grading is it's bike dependent

agreed.
There is 5 sec difference for me between my two bikes. It would need to be time brackets in classes. eg 1:45 in retro is fast but in unlimited it isn't.

[tempest]

% of lap record for the class.

Most will find they are a similar % off the respective lap record on each bike they ride.

Enforce quali cut offs and run a novice race.

[Marshy]

% of lap record for the class.

Most will find they are a similar % off the respective lap record on each bike they ride.

This!! Perfect.

[Marshy]

As a n00b I like the idea of the 4 grades...

There just aren't enough people for this in almost all classes and race meets. If you are trying to give almost everyone a trophy, this works perfectly! But I'd rather make trophies a little harder to get than just turning up Remember that this is 'per grade, per class', and if you've ever been to a trophy presentation, particularly at a St George meet with lots of different classes, it is just a sea of trophies. 1st, 2nd, 3rd in each grade, in each class. That's a shit-load of trophies! In reality St George and most other race meets already self-correct into 3 grades, as they simply combine A and B into the same grade.

And you'd have to have more than 5 laps on a bracket before you get bumped. Otherwise you get one lucky lap following a faster rider during qually and next thing you know you've changed grades.

Agreed. I forgot to put this in my first post.

[Mstevo]

% of lap record for the class.

Most will find they are a similar % off the respective lap record on each bike they ride.

Enforce quali cut offs and run a novice race.

remember you can only be graded at the start of the year, what happens if you buy another bike and you just get fast through the year?
also the quali cut offs sound good but it's way to much work for the club volunteers to do on the day

I don't think there is a solution that comes even close to covering 80% of the various scenarios, you could have no major end of year prizes, just round prizes...but the club has it's traditions which need to be respected.

[Marshy]

remember you can only be graded at the start of the year

In ye olden days, there were two gradings per year - mid season and at the end of the year. You kept your points total, but started accruing points in your new grade if you got bumped halfway through the season. This sorted out uber-fast guys that were D graders but should have been B.

[Stu23]

As I previously stated you can and I have been graded within the year...... I also was the only C grader racing in clubsport a couple of years ago ( all me mates got regraded and I was too slow ).. Yipeeee thought I.... That year They ran the A , b and C grades all together in clubsport oh shit !!

[Baddie]

Yep, that sucks, Rick. Many people have experienced the same or similar situations. The email from StG is technically accurate but not really how it works. As I understand it, the club prepares the list and forwards it to the RR committee (which also has club members on the committee), who rubber stamp it. MNSW then send out the certificates.

MA voted earlier this year to 'review' the grading system. There were two people nominated to look into it. They will apparently report back next year sometime. There wasn't even a direction to come back with a proposal specifically.

Frankly, it's not rocket surgery. It should simply be based on objective, measurable criteria, NOT the current subjective, whimsical system of 'at the discretion of a club committee member'. There should simply be lap-time brackets for grades, possibly based on machinery. And there should be three grades, not four (VIC only has A, B, and C). Plus a Novice category. This whole 'level of experience' stuff is total crap! You should race against people of your speed, not your experience. Times from all races (AASA, or MA) are all online now, so it is easy to check times.

Novice: Never raced (in any form of motorsport!) before; you only a novice for 3 race meetings maximum, and you get moved up regardless after winning a Novice-class race meet - even if it's your first ever race meet. Novices race separately to everyone else, and are not split by capacity (all Novices race on track together, separately from other grades). This allows people that have just started to actually win a race by crossing the line first, which is something that will hook people for life (it did for me). You get regraded at the end of your 3 race meets into whichever grade you fit, based on laptimes.

C grade: Same as currently. Lap time bracket, say, 1:50+ at EC and equivalent at other tracks.

B grade: 1:40 to 1:50 at EC (and equivalent).

A grade: sub-1:40.

My $0.02

Love the Novice idea...give us old and slow guys a chance

[Saturnalian]

It was Grasshopper's 3rd roadrace meet.

that may be true but 2 years ago he was out there what seemed like every weekend cutting laps at track days and super bike schools, and he was damn quick then too.

[Saturnalian]

Love the Novice idea...give us old and slow guys a chance

you'd still need to actually enter a race first !!!!

[Mr.Ed]

There just aren't enough people for this in almost all classes and race meets. If you are trying to give almost everyone a trophy, this works perfectly! But I'd rather make trophies a little harder to get than just turning up Remember that this is 'per grade, per class', and if you've ever been to a trophy presentation, particularly at a St George meet with lots of different classes, it is just a sea of trophies. 1st, 2nd, 3rd in each grade, in each class. That's a shit-load of trophies! In reality St George and most other race meets already self-correct into 3 grades, as they simply combine A and B into the same grade.



Agreed. I forgot to put this in my first post.

Yep! Sorry, it makes sense. I forgot about 2nd and 3rd places... and to be honest, I reckon they should only call up the 1st place anyway.