Well, THERE'S your problem!

[Marshy]

So the Ape has been dramatically dropping out of 6th gear (so much so that I've been restricted to only using 5th gear). It just griiiiiinds in no gear, even with the clutch in, until I slow down enough to finally find a lower gear. It also found a false neutral a couple of times on the change upward from 3rd to 4th. So out came the gearbox today.

When I had a look, it's missing the circlip that holds the final pinion gear (2nd) on the primary shaft, which meant that the teeth between 6th and 3rd were not held together, and also to a lesser extent between 5th and 4th. Check out the wear, particularly on 6th.

Oh, and you gotta love cassette gearboxes!! Soooo easy to work on. Anyone would think they designed this bike with racing in mind

[chubb]

must be nice to have so much time...... to WORK ON YOUR BIKE ALL THE TIME!!!

[Marshy]

I'm sick today (cough cough).

[Mr.Ed]

I didn't even know there were sportbikes without cassete type gearboxes!! Not that I know much anyway... hahaha

Can you buy the gears separately to fix it now?

[stevem]

So where is the cir clip? Does it have a oil pick up screen or have you checked the sump?

[Marshy]

So where is the cir clip? Does it have a oil pick up screen or have you checked the sump?

I have been wondering exactly that, Steve. I haven't found it yet; access isn't great, but I haven't really looked hard yet. Might have to unbolt the sump.

Ed, yep, new individual gears are on order now. They are pretty cheap too.

AFAIK, none of the Jap bikes have cassette style gearboxes. I thought they all were 'turn the motor upside down to get to the gearbox' style. But I don't know - in all my years of racing I've never had to do one before, which probably tells you something about the design of Japanese bikes compared to the Italians....

[Mstevo]

god you have given those dogs a floggin

[Mr.Ed]

Ed, yep, new individual gears are on order now. They are pretty cheap too.

AFAIK, none of the Jap bikes have cassette style gearboxes. I thought they all were 'turn the motor upside down to get to the gearbox' style. But I don't know - in all my years of racing I've never had to do one before, which probably tells you something about the design of Japanese bikes compared to the Italians....

Great re the gear availability and prices!!

Not sure about the others but Google tells me my faithful ZX6 has thems cassetes playing like it's 1979!! hahaha

"In keeping with its racing heritage, the ZX-6R employs a cassette-type transmission that simplifies gearing changes at the track, reducing set-up time and allowing more time for riding. A slipper clutch allows quick downshifts without upsetting the rest of the chassis when reducing speed on corner entry."

[Stu23]

Might be worth getting the dogs on the new gears undercut whilst theyre out Nick....... and yes theyre butchered aren't they mstevo ! hell no wonder it wouldn't get in, surprised it wasn't jumping out too

[Baddie]

Looks like a heap of fun.

[Phat3R]

So once you get that repaired, do you think you will be quicker now you can select 6th? ;-)

Are you scrounging the parts from the 2nd spares bike from WA?

[stevem]

My 05 cbr1000rr has a cassette but the s1000rr doesn't

[Marshy]

Are you scrounging the parts from the 2nd spares bike from WA?

Nope. I've got all new bits on order to fix it up like new, so it will be the number 2 bike veeeery soon

[Nelso]

The 2011 on ZX10's also have a cassette gearbox.

[Negrogrande]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference?

I rebuilt the gearbox in my Aprilia RS125 & I have no idea what I am doing mechanically generally

EDIT:

Scratch that, I get it now looking at the photos, they are all stacked on top of each other rather than the alternating pattern
RS125 for reference
IMG_6706medium.jpg

[Button699]

Hey marshy.. I think have heard a little about this happening.. Some guys saying the first sign of it happening is excessive play in the gearlever at the countershaft? Guys saying they were getting up to 10mm play either direction before it selecting instead of about about 1-2mm.. Mines got about 6-8mm and have been worried about it for a few months now.. U didn't happen to notice any play on yours prior did u?? Also have missed 3-4 a couple times the other week. But no grinding noises

[Marshy]

That now makes total sense. I had MASSIVE amounts of travel on the gear lever. Like, so much that with my busted foot, I couldn't get it into a position where I had enough throw with my foot to upshift and downshift. I didn't measure, but I'd guess a lot more than 10mm in either direction. Never having ridden an Ape before, I assumed it was a design thing, and I just manually shortened the amount of throw.

Missing 3-4 is kind of a 'known issue' from some of the reading I've been doing. It happens fairly regularly, and I think you just change them out.

I only got the grinding stuff when it fell out of 6th (ie every time through turn 1 at the Creek, until I gave up and left it in 5th). Missing the 3-4 shift just sent the engine bouncing off the limiter at full throttle, until I could grab a gear again.

I'd suggest you'll have the same issue then. It probably won't do that much more damage than is already there, unless the circlip ends up somewhere it shouldn't.... Everything will already need replacing.

So on that note, I thought I'd support the local Aprilia dealer so I asked for a quote for the bits I need. Here's their prices, followed in brackets by the prices from the Aprilia Superstore in the US.

3 x 28 (Washer for shafts) – 857232 $2.35 ($0.79)
2 x 29 (Clearance washer) – 857234 $10.80 ($3.79)
1 x 30 (6th pinion gear) – 857231 $89.40 ($24.69)
1 x 31 (5th pinion gear) – 857230 $89.40 ($23.67)
1 x 32 (2nd pinion gear) – 897455 $62.00 ($14.58)
1 x 33 (3rd-4th pinion gear) – 897456 $154.00 ($43.47)

Local total: $423.45. US total: US$116.36 (A$130). I like to do my bit for local businesses, but a 350% mark-up is just silly. Parts ordered from the US.

[Marshy]

I should add that it's not the local shop, but rather the importer, JSG, that are (trying to) ream us.

[Marshy]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference?

I rebuilt the gearbox in my Aprilia RS125 & I have no idea what I am doing mechanically generally

EDIT:

Scratch that, I get it now looking at the photos, they are all stacked on top of each other rather than the alternating pattern
RS125 for reference
IMG_6706medium.jpg

It's actually that you can slide the whole gearbox unit out of the engine case (like a cassette going in and out of a cassette player!) without having to drop the engine out and split the casing etc to get to the gearbox. Muuuuuch quicker and easier, and you can (in the rarefied world of top-level superbike/GP racing) do it trackside between sessions, to change internal gear ratios.

In the Aprilia's case, clearly it is not there for Max Falloffi.... errr... Biaggi and co to change internal ratios, but rather to quickly fix all their gearboxes that break every 5 minutes......

[Button699]

Shit! Yea that's just crazy.. Someones making a buck or two.. Cheers man.. I'll deffinately remember that when I go to order some.. I'm gunna check it out but .. Fingers crossed I'm just missing 3-4 cause Im shit.. It was more just wouldn't click up a gear.. It never actually found a false neutral .. But I was finding myself on the straight clicking 2 or three times for it to go on a few occasions.. ? So not real sure what it is...

[Negrogrande]

It's actually that you can slide the whole gearbox unit out of the engine case (like a cassette going in and out of a cassette player!) without having to drop the engine out and split the casing etc to get to the gearbox. Muuuuuch quicker and easier, and you can (in the rarefied world of top-level superbike/GP racing) do it trackside between sessions, to change internal gear ratios.

In the Aprilia's case, clearly it is not there for Max Falloffi.... errr... Biaggi and co to change internal ratios, but rather to quickly fix all their gearboxes that break every 5 minutes......

ah I see, I didn't drop the engine on the ape or split the cases (it was a 2T to be fair).

Learn something new everyday

[Phat3R]

It's actually that you can slide the whole gearbox unit out of the engine case (like a cassette going in and out of a cassette player!) without having to drop the engine out and split the casing etc to get to the gearbox. Muuuuuch quicker and easier, and you can (in the rarefied world of top-level superbike/GP racing) do it trackside between sessions, to change internal gear ratios.

In the Aprilia's case, clearly it is not there for Max Falloffi.... errr... Biaggi and co to change internal ratios, but rather to quickly fix all their gearboxes that break every 5 minutes......

So those guys tweak the internal gearing ratios instead of or in conjunction with front / rear sprockets? If the latter, does it just allows finer adjustment for a particular track?

[Marshy]

So those guys tweak the internal gearing ratios instead of or in conjunction with front / rear sprockets? If the latter, does it just allows finer adjustment for a particular track?

In addition to. So, if for example, if out of a particular corner they need the motor to be at slightly higher revs for maximum drive, they can change just 3rd gear (or whatever) to be a tooth shorter or longer, without changing the overall final drive (ie having too short or long gearing for the main straight), or wrecking drive out of 2nd gear corners etc.

[Mstevo]

In addition to. So, if for example, if out of a particular corner they need the motor to be at slightly higher revs for maximum drive, they can change just 3rd gear (or whatever) to be a tooth shorter or longer, without changing the overall final drive (ie having too short or long gearing for the main straight), or wrecking drive out of 2nd gear corners etc.

this give the added advantage of not stuffing up suspension/geometry settings that comes with the the change of wheelbase length when changing sprockets

[Phat3R]

this give the added advantage of not stuffing up suspension/geometry settings that comes with the the change of wheelbase length when changing sprockets

ah ha! Yes to both of the above.

So first working out and then setting up the sprockets and gear ratios for a specific track becomes a really important Unfair Advantage that those riders who happen to be able to do this.

Out of interest does anyone on TT use non standard gearing for specific tracks or even just for a specific track ie SMSP?

[Mr.Ed]

I thought everyone used non standard gearing!! Mine for example is too short for EC and too long for WP... so yeah, don't follow my lead. hahaha

[shippy__]

I don't think you would find many with standard gearing

start a thread

[Marshy]

I think he meant internal gearbox ratios. Rick knows about sprocket changes, although he only recently started using shorter gearing!!

[Mr.Ed]

Oh, my bad... in that case I'll just say that some bikes do have different rations (i.e. ZX400 SP) whilst some manufacturers offer close ration gearboxes as a 'kit' and there even some aftermarket ones*, not sure if anyone here has them.

*http://www.novaracing.co.uk/Product2...ioGearbox.html

[Marshy]

I might just unwittingly be covering for him, Ed

I was just chatting to another Ape guy in the last couple of days and he mentioned they were thinking about the Nova close-ratio box. I hadn't heard of them before now. But, fudge me, they are exxy!! Not worth it, imho.

Also, Stu, who would you recommend to undercut the dogs on the new gears??

[Mr.Ed]

Yeah, it's a LOT of cash. It costs more than the KIT gearbox I think...

[Phat3R]

I think he meant internal gearbox ratios. Rick knows about sprocket changes, although he only recently started using shorter gearing!!

Sorry ... I've been ambiguous yet again. I did mean the internal gearing ... I'm aware just about everyone used specific sprockets for specific tracks.

Just wondering if guys like PGM would optimise the internal gearing to suit the track. I have no idea about how much this would be advantageous ... But I guess it has to be reasonably substantial. As has been suggested, you can setup the bike for optimum drive out of specific corners (yes there would be some tradeoffs here), an at the same time not affecting the final drive ratio or pissing around with the geometry and suspension implications of sprocket changes.

Those with cassette's would be the most likely to do this ... which sounds like kwaka and apes owners?

[phillmac]

Would be more a international superbike level type thing. Locals would just have motors that pull surprisingly well for stock.
Cheating in motor sport for advantage is about as common as lies in politics. Heard some have to hit a switch for after race dyno, prob to change map.

[Marty]

I've actually got the HRC gearbox kit for my bike at home, I got given it for free when I bought a bunch of parts off a bloke.

In this case it's a longer 1st gear, which makes heaps of sense because with shorter final drive first gear becomes useless.

I'm not that interested in fitting it but I always assumed it would be a split the cases job. If I can just pop it in without dropping the motor I might consider it.

[Marshy]

I've always longed for one of those HRC gearboxes!! I reckon the taller 1st gear would be awesome for dragging off the line too - less wheelie risk, and longer time before the first gear change.

[BoB]

I've actually got the HRC gearbox kit for my bike at home, I got given it for free when I bought a bunch of parts off a bloke.

In this case it's a longer 1st gear, which makes heaps of sense because with shorter final drive first gear becomes useless.

I'm not that interested in fitting it but I always assumed it would be a split the cases job. If I can just pop it in without dropping the motor I might consider it.

I might be interested in using it for my next engine build if you want to off load it ...

[Marty]

I might be interested in using it for my next engine build if you want to off load it ...

Ok I'll keep it in mind. I'd like to fit it if it's straight forward but it's not worth pulling the motor out over it. One day I might rebuild it if she gets too tired or throws a leg outta bed

[Kris]

Gday Nick,

I've found removing and reinstalling the gearbox is fairly straight forward. As you know I've ordered 2-6th input/output gears. How easy is the removal and installation of the gearwheels ? Nova Racing in the UK do a set of modified gears, super finished and apparently using 4 dogs, never to wear out (so im told). All for the bargain price of 1400GBP

[Marshy]

How easy is the removal and installation of the gearwheels ?

Easy. They mostly just slide off, except you also need to remove a couple of circlips to get them all off. 5 minute job.

Nova Racing in the UK do a set of modified gears, super finished and apparently using 4 dogs, never to wear out (so im told). All for the bargain price of 1400GBP

Yikes!! I've seen these before, but can't possibly justify the coin for this. I'm sure it's nice though.

[Kris]

Easy. They mostly just slide off, except you also need to remove a couple of circlips to get them all off. 5 minute job.

Yikes!! I've seen these before, but can't possibly justify the coin for this. I'm sure it's nice though.

Really? think I might have to give it a go myself then. I ordered the circlips and washers, do the circlips come off with circlip pliers or is some other special tool required?

Yep, too rich for me. I dont need gears that outlast the bike.

[Marshy]

do the circlips come off with circlip pliers or is some other special tool required?

They are easy enough to lever off with a small flat-blade screwdriver. My terminology is probably a bit out.... I suspect they aren't proper circlips, as they don't need circlip pliers and they don't reach 99% of the way around. I guess they have another proper name, but IDK what it is.

It's all surprisingly easy when you get into it. Do you have a copy of the workshop manual, just in case?

[Kris]

They are easy enough to lever off with a small flat-blade screwdriver. My terminology is probably a bit out.... I suspect they aren't proper circlips, as they don't need circlip pliers and they don't reach 99% of the way around. I guess they have another proper name, but IDK what it is.

It's all surprisingly easy when you get into it. Do you have a copy of the workshop manual, just in case?

Yep, ive got the workshop manual. Ill give it a go I guess the hardest bit is most likely putting the clutch cover back on!

Gotta be able to do this stuff yourself at the track so its a good time to learn....

[Marshy]

I guess the hardest bit is most likely putting the clutch cover back on!

YES!!!!!!!!! This ^^

Farkin' soooooo hard to line up the clutch properly. I did an R6 one yesterday, and it was super-duper easy - just line up the dots and viola.

[Kris]

Theres a bit of a trick to it that I got shown my an Aprilia mechanic Got it on first go... ill show you next time I see you

[Turbo]

YES!!!!!!!!! This ^^

Farkin' soooooo hard to line up the clutch properly. I did an R6 one yesterday, and it was super-duper easy - just line up the dots and viola.

Pffffft! dots are optional... Unless you really 'need' a functional clutch.

[Marshy]

Pffffft! dots are optional... Unless you really 'need' a functional clutch.

I reckon you were just going for more 'slip' with the clutch - the plates had 10mm freeplay

[Marshy]

Well, I just finished reassembling the new gearbox. It's back in the bike, and once I sand down the clutch plates and put the clutch back in, it'll be ready to fire up for the first time. That's tomorrow's task.