Give it to me straight!!!

[Ruckos87]

Hey all, below is a clip of a few of my laps at SMSP in May just prior and including my highside. Sorry the video is a bit long and boring, but I'd be interested in any feed back on my riding style lines ect. If anyone had time to check it out, (or the crash is the last 20sec if you just want a look)

The high side it seems I got on the gas too early, lost the rear, chopped the throttle , and the rest is history. I think I'm on top of that now but prior to that am I on the throttle too early in general? I had just passed another rider so perhaps that effected my throttle control?
I'd be happy to hear any thing else you guys can offer.

Background info
Green group
07 cbr 600
Was about my 9th track day. So still learning
Running Metzeler slicks

Edit it would seem I can't edit for shit... Crash is at about 6 min ...

http://youtu.be/pL6trmXrhFI

Cheer Luke



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[Turbo]

Gearbox is upside down!! Lol
hahaha, nah but there were a coulle of things I spotted....
There were a few corners where you took a couple of grabs at the throttle before committing to a full roll on.
Also, there were a couple of times you added more lean angle once the throttle was cracked, toward the end of the turn.
Both of those could easily cause a high side.... Are you and the bike recovering ok??

[Marshy]

Hey Luke, nice riding there, buddy!! A couple of things from my perspective.

Your lines are generally very good.... except when you miss apexes. So mostly top marks on that, but work on a bit more consistency with your lines, as being wide on apexes fairly frequently can cause issues where you're expecting the same level of grip as right on the race line, but it's not quite there. Track time is the answer here; practice practice practice!

Most guys short-shift out of T2, just as you transition from turning left to turning right before T3. You're doing T3 in 2nd, which is a bit revvy. Likewise on the back straight between T9 and T10, try grabbing 4th instead of leaving it in 3rd. You'll gain more straightline speed, plus you'll take T10 at a higher speed because the bike can 'flow' on a closed throttle much better at lower rpm. Then downshift when you are upright, as you transition from turning right in T10 to turning left for T11. Likewise, try continuing to only shift down one gear (ie 4th to 3rd, instead of 3rd to 2nd that you're doing now), and take T11 and T12 in 3rd. You'll again be able to flow the bike better, aiming for a higher mid-corner speed, and when you exit T12 at a higher speed, you'll be right at the start of the power band in 3rd for the drive down the straight.

Your crash was very very odd. It just didn't look like it should've highsided. You were narrow on your corner entry due to overtaking the other bike, but still it just seemed you were just a bit too upright to highside like that. Just unlucky, I guess. How old was the rear tyre?

[Marshy]

Also, are you full-throttle out of T1? It sounds a bit flat on exit. And of course, you could try going just a bit deeper before backing off for T1.

[Marshy]

I've covered the tacho with the rear view, unfortunately, but the gear indicator is still visible. Here's me an Wetty having a ding-dong battle in the 600 class at the State Titles last year. It should give you an idea of shift points etc.

[Ruckos87]

AwesomeI'm on the road today but I'll check out all the above ASAP


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[Mr.Ed]

What gearing do you have on there?

[Ruckos87]

What gearing do you have on there?

44 tooth rear, (as I brought it ) I think that's +3???


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[Nelso]

Apart from the inconsistent lines and missed apexes that Marshy pointed out, I think you consistently went too wide into 2, come out of 2 a bit wide which puts you into 3 too tight and come out of 4 too wide which messes up your entry to turn 5. As far as the highside goes, it sounds like you got on the throttle fairly aggressively while you still had a lot of weight on the front tyre (due to turning harder from the narrower angle of entry) and it spun up and slipped out due to the lack of weight on the rear tyre.

[Ruckos87]

Gearbox is upside down!! Lol
hahaha, nah but there were a coulle of things I spotted....
There were a few corners where you took a couple of grabs at the throttle before committing to a full roll on.
Also, there were a couple of times you added more lean angle once the throttle was cracked, toward the end of the turn.
Both of those could easily cause a high side.... Are you and the bike recovering ok??

Cheers Yep all good to go dislocated my elbow but a clean dislocation so no arthroscope needed. im booked in August 10. Bike is sorted, fortunately it just lowsided, did some fairing damage, clipons, clutch lever and case savers which did there job perfectly.
I defiantly need to get a bit smoother. I think the adding lean angle most likely relates to missing the apex ( as mentioned above) and trying to adjust? I'll try and set myself up better earlier .


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[Ruckos87]

Hey Luke, nice riding there, buddy!! A couple of things from my perspective.

Your lines are generally very good.... except when you miss apexes. So mostly top marks on that, but work on a bit more consistency with your lines, as being wide on apexes fairly frequently can cause issues where you're expecting the same level of grip as right on the race line, but it's not quite there. Track time is the answer here; practice practice practice!

Most guys short-shift out of T2, just as you transition from turning left to turning right before T3. You're doing T3 in 2nd, which is a bit revvy. Likewise on the back straight between T9 and T10, try grabbing 4th instead of leaving it in 3rd. You'll gain more straightline speed, plus you'll take T10 at a higher speed because the bike can 'flow' on a closed throttle much better at lower rpm. Then downshift when you are upright, as you transition from turning right in T10 to turning left for T11. Likewise, try continuing to only shift down one gear (ie 4th to 3rd, instead of 3rd to 2nd that you're doing now), and take T11 and T12 in 3rd. You'll again be able to flow the bike better, aiming for a higher mid-corner speed, and when you exit T12 at a higher speed, you'll be right at the start of the power band in 3rd for the drive down the straight.

Your crash was very very odd. It just didn't look like it should've highsided. You were narrow on your corner entry due to overtaking the other bike, but still it just seemed you were just a bit too upright to highside like that. Just unlucky, I guess. How old was the rear tyre?

Some great advice there cheers Nick. I'll re read through it while watching the video again a few times in the coming weeks.


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[Ruckos87]

Also, are you full-throttle out of T1? It sounds a bit flat on exit. And of course, you could try going just a bit deeper before backing off for T1.

Nar I'm generally only maybe a 1/4? I should properly break harder into T2 at present im engine braking more that i need to???


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[Ruckos87]

Apart from the inconsistent lines and missed apexes that Marshy pointed out, I think you consistently went too wide into 2, come out of 2 a bit wide which puts you into 3 too tight and come out of 4 too wide which messes up your entry to turn 5. As far as the highside goes, it sounds like you got on the throttle fairly aggressively while you still had a lot of weight on the front tyre (due to turning harder from the narrower angle of entry) and it spun up and slipped out due to the lack of weight on the rear tyre.

That double apex is my nemesis. I've had a few moment there....
Cheers I'll look at those points on the vid this week.


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[Marty]

It's not bad at all, i didn't really see the crash coming watching the video. I run a cbr600 on metzellers and they are decent but I find after about 4-5 hard laps the rear overheats and gets greasy, you really gotta listen to the revs closely and be very fine on the throttle and ready to catch it.

As others have said, missing some apexes but the biggest thing is I think your throttle pick up is too abrupt. I found an few year old vid of mine doing similar ballpark lap times. I miss a couple of apexes, definitely not my best work (cameras never on for it of course ) but the thing to take away from it is the throttle pickup. Sometimes I think I get on it too early (sending me wide) but cleanly.

These bikes are very sweet in the part throttle feel and mid range, it's definitely a strength of these bikes so you need to make the most of it

http://youtu.be/5piGihLpVOY

Marty

[Marshy]

Nar I'm generally only maybe a 1/4? I should properly break harder into T2 at present im engine braking more that i need to???

Hell yeah, give it the berries once you are apexing at T1, and hold it flat until after the 200m board (see how close you can get to the 100m board on a 600). T2 is a very hard stop. And there's lots of time to be made out of T1 before you get to T2

[stevem]

And there's lots of time to be made out of T1 before you get to T2 [/QUOTE]

True

[Linden]

And there's lots of time to be made out of T1 before you get to T2

True

If you have HP ....

[Marshy]

If you have HP ....

But you've got one HP, don't you Linden? Or is it two?

[Marty]

If you have HP ....

If you got no HP you just hold it flat through t1

[chubb]

Hell yeah, give it the berries once you are apexing at T1, and hold it flat until after the 200m board (see how close you can get to the 100m board on a 600). T2 is a very hard stop. And there's lots of time to be made out of T1 before you get to T2

mere mortals can go to the 100m (can do it on the 1000 too but you need to brake and have balls) on a 600 before backing off. If you're Wagner or Spriggs then please go well well well well well after...

[Mr.Ed]

This. If I brake at the 100m anyone can...

[Marshy]

I'm shit at late braking

[Ruckos87]

Next post me in the mud after running through T2 lol


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[Linden]

If you got no HP you just hold it flat through t1

Pretty much ... down 1 (which doesn't do much - but gives more drive T1->T2) and "try" and hold it on the stop...

[Linden]

This. If I brake at the 100m anyone can...

... but it depends on your T1 speed ... if I'm not on the throttle hard through T1 75M is possible

[Mr.Ed]

There's that too... but I'd say I'm a lot less bad around T1 than I am under brakes into T2.

[Nelso]

If you got no HP you just hold it flat through t1

Yep.

[Nelso]

Next post me in the mud after running through T2 lol

Here's a few laps following Nick not pushing too hard in the last session of the day. You can see me shutting off at the 200 mark and cruising into turn 2 instead of holding it on to the 100 marker and breaking hard. You will be surprised how much speed you can wash off when you brake really hard, but in this session, I could still cruise in, not braking hard, even after getting on the throttle coming out of turn 1. The one thing you will be able to see with this and Marshy's vid is how tight we all go into turn 2.

[Button699]

Here's a few laps following Nick not pushing too hard in the last session of the day. You can see me shutting off at the 200 mark and cruising into turn 2 instead of holding it on to the 100 marker and breaking hard. You will be surprised how much speed you can wash off when you brake really hard, but in this session, I could still cruise in, not braking hard, even after getting on the throttle coming out of turn 1. The one thing you will be able to see with this and Marshy's vid is how tight we all go into turn 2.

Wow- has dom's bike got some ponies!!!!!!! What bike were u riding nelso?

[Rusty]

Wow- has dom's bike got some ponies!!!!!!! What bike were u riding nelso?

Nelso is on his 04 ZX10 with not so many ponies as Dom's bike.

[Button699]

Damn .. Yea it got hosed down the straight!

[Nelso]

Wow- has dom's bike got some ponies!!!!!!! What bike were u riding nelso?

That was before he got his flashed too, so it's even more powerful now. His was a stock current model ZX10 with a can and as Leanne said, mine is a stock '04 ZX10 with a full system, but no fuel management system. My bike is also carrying an extra 30kg and unfortunately I punch a larger hole in the air, so it's not just the 25hp difference of the two bikes.

[Button699]

Goes to show hp isn't everything.. Nice vid..

[senator8]

I'd add that you could really benefit from some coaching or schooling on body position and setting up for the turns etc.
You need to be set up (off the bike already) before hard braking and turn in. As well you're moving as you exit. All of this unsettles the bike and also makes it hard to be consistent.
You only really need to get back on the seat to tuck for long straights.

p.S nice vid Nelso

[Ruckos87]

I'd add that you could really benefit from some coaching or schooling on body position and setting up for the turns etc.
You need to be set up (off the bike already) before hard braking and turn in. As well you're moving as you exit. All of this unsettles the bike and also makes it hard to be consistent.
You only really need to get back on the seat to tuck for long straights.

p.S nice vid Nelso

I've done CSS levels 1 and 2 , and Moto DNA (3 on 1)I reccon a one on one track day with a more experienced rider would be of more value. ?? The tips in this thread however should keep me with working points for at least a few more track days.
I'm defiantly learning as I go.
From my 1st track day I think I'm getting better position now
but I've got a lot to learn .


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[Mr.Ed]

1 on 1 is obviously great but I reckon it's more beneficial once you iron out some of the more common mistakes... For now I'd be making a list of things you know you need to improve on and working on those one by one. I speak from experience when I say that fixing body position is a lot harder when you're trying to also improve your braking, accelerating and etc. There's a lot you can improve by simply practicing on the bike on your own (I've heard people say they practice on their bikes on stands but I was never game to try it on my very public car spot).

[Ruckos87]

1 on 1 is obviously great but I reckon it's more beneficial once you iron out some of the more common mistakes... For now I'd be making a list of things you know you need to improve on and working on those one by one. I speak from experience when I say that fixing body position is a lot harder when you're trying to also improve your braking, accelerating and etc. There's a lot you can improve by simply practicing on the bike on your own (I've heard people say they practice on their bikes on stands but I was never game to try it on my very public car spot).

I'll defiantly have a list to work on next session.


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[Little Mick]

p.S nice vid Nelso

Watching that made me want to ride the lc. .. when are we on nelso?

[Marty]

I'm honestly not sure if Wagner brakes into T1 😳
Here's a vid I took on my phone at St George when he raced his WSS bike and smashed the record. Looks like he tips in at WOT then just slams the throttle shut and drops a gear at the same time. I could watch this on a loop all day

https://instagram.com/p/yjM07USlvZ/


Cool vid Nelso! I did a session on Andreas 250 once and it's an amazing feeling holding it flat into T1, even though it was probably only doing 160 with me on it 😄

Marty


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[Little Mick]

I'm honestly not sure if Wagner brakes into T1 😳



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No need to brake into 1 once you build up enough confidence (on a 600 at least)

[Turbo]

No need to brake into 1 once you build up enough confidence (on a 600 at least)

+1... I don't brake into T1. Just knock her down at the slip road.

[Marshy]

https://instagram.com/p/yjM07USlvZ/

THAT IS SOOOOOO COOL!! Top vid. When I'd been watching him at T1 (FX, Nov, maybe?) he was braking at about the 30m marker. But it definitely looked like braking. This is in another league. Just amazing.

[stevem]

https://instagram.com/p/yjM07USlvZ/

Thanks for that Marty. Really cool

[Nelso]

Watching that made me want to ride the lc. .. when are we on nelso?

Whenever we can get to the track. I put a 110 front tyre and 130 rear on it and managed a 1:52 on it yesterday, which I was pretty stoked with. Unfortunately I didn't have the GoPro mount so I didn't get any footage of it. It's still got a bit more sorting to do with the front end (it still chatters), but it's getting better to ride.

[Nelso]

No need to brake into 1 once you build up enough confidence (on a 600 at least)

I was't even shutting off on my GSXR yesterday, just lift the head move over and tip in, keeping it pinned.

[Marty]

When I was riding at my best I was still a pussy through t1. I reckon from the exit of 12 till the brake marker at 2 I was giving away time.

[Ruckos87]

I'll be out there on the 10th, I'll chuck the camera at some point to see how I'm going. Hopefully chuck up a vid for someone tips with the aded power of the new RSV4 don't think I'll be keeping it pinned into T1 just yet lol.
also running a New lap timer so should be fun


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