St George Clubsport 600 2014

[Marty]

Ok so remember there was the big scare back before round 3 this year where they just casually mentioned that fuel injection was now banned from Clubsport 600, a stink was kicked up and they revoked the rule for the rest of the season.

Does anyone know what the deal is for next season? There has been a big influx of new entries to cs600 since round 3 and a fair few injected bikes, could this have any baring on their plans? I'm looking to cross enter 600cc and clubby next season, if I'm limited to one class it really doesn't leave much track time and I the 600cc grid will be overflowing.

How can we find out about any planned rule changes for next season?

Cheers
Marty

[Marshy]

I was at a recent committee meeting (for the first time), and they confirmed that nothing will change - next year bikes up to 12/2008 compliance plates will be eligible for CS.

To be honest, I'm thinking about a proposal to suggest the age is reset to be, say, 8 years old, then go up 1 year each year. I reckon it'll just be another 600 (1000s are the same) class next year, even more than it is currently.

Thoughts?

[Jashdown]

As long as my 07 gixxer can fit into clubby I don't care!

[Little Mick]

not sure I understand your suggestion Nick. bike has to be 8 years or older by year? so this year (2013) would have meant that only up to 2005 could do CS?

[Mstevo]

not sure I understand your suggestion Nick. bike has to be 8 years or older by year? so this year (2013) would have meant that only up to 2005 could do CS?

Yep and it should be by year model and not just compliance plate eg 9/06 R1 and up is really an 07 model not an 06 model

[chubb]

There was plenty of talk about this last year as well but nothing got changed

I don't think they will change it because majority of the people wouldn't want to like last time

[dan]

not sure I understand your suggestion Nick. bike has to be 8 years or older by year? so this year (2013) would have meant that only up to 2005 could do CS?

Works for me haha

I think Nick is suggesting rather than the rules changing to specifically mention a date they make it always sit 8 years behind perhaps and that continues every year?

[Little Mick]

that would upset those that have gone out and bought late model clubby legal bikes to double stint wouldn't it? its what all the resistance was about?

hey Im all for it... roll it back and get everyone competitive..

[dan]

I reckon it'll just be another 600 (1000s are the same) class next year, even more than it is currently.

Thoughts?

I don't have the entry list handy but I do seem to remember many of the bikes being the same which takes away from the 'clubsport' aspect if they are all current generation bikes.

Let's face it - us boys on the old gixxers and retro 600s are the only real clubsporters out there

[Mstevo]

Preston MCC have a 10 year rule
I have asked do they accept model runs as in Yamaha 04-06 R1 are the same model, and would they accept my 05 R1 into next years club sport

[Marshy]

Yep and it should be by year model and not just compliance plate eg 9/06 R1 and up is really an 07 model not an 06 model

Agreed. Compliance plate is just silly.

There was plenty of talk about this last year as well but nothing got changed

I don't think they will change it because majority of the people wouldn't want to like last time

The talk was only among the punters, not the decision makers. AFAIK, the committee wasn't even aware of all the talk.....

I think Nick is suggesting rather than the rules changing to specifically mention a date they make it always sit 8 years behind perhaps and that continues every year?

Correct. Although I just pulled the 8 year number out of the air. But very importantly, it needs to increase year-on-year, so that bikes of the very latest eligibility don't massively increase in value (as happens in PCRA, where the latest year is always 1995 and will not increase for the foreseeable future).

that would upset those that have gone out and bought late model clubby legal bikes to double stint wouldn't it? its what all the resistance was about?

Again, all idle chat rather than organised resistance. And don't forget that the person most disadvantaged by this rule change would be me!!!! But leave it for next year as it is now, and change it for the year after. So everyone that have bought bikes for next year aren't disadvantaged. I don't know any people that have bought bikes for 2015, although I recognise that people may be looking forward to when their current ride becomes clubsport-eligible.

Preston MCC have a 10 year rule
I have asked do they accept model runs as in Yamaha 04-06 R1 are the same model, and would they accept my 05 R1 into next years club sport

I like this idea. Makes sense to me.

[Nelso]

This is going to upset a few people, but, I think if people are going out buying the latest eligible bike for Clubsport, or modifying their engines to be competitive, they should be racing in Unlimited and 600's, not Clubsport. If you are throwing that much money at it, you are in the wrong class. Clubsport should be cheap racing and anyone who has spent big money modifying bikes to run in Clubsport are ruining it for everyone else who just want to have fun without spending a fortune.

I think it should be 7 year old bikes, rather than 5 and they should go off the year model of the bike, not the compliance plate. I also think any bike that has had internal mods done to the engine should be at least 2 years older than the eligible year, so they would need to be at least 9 years old. Why? Because a 7 year old Superbike or Supersport will still be competitive with a standard new bike and could run in with the 'big spenders', but they have a very unfair advantage over standard (read cheap!) old bikes.

So let the haters start hating.

[Phat3R]

This is going to upset a few people, but, I think if people are going out buying the latest eligible bike for Clubsport, or modifying their engines to be competitive, they should be racing in Unlimited and 600's, not Clubsport. If you are throwing that much money at it, you are in the wrong class. Clubsport should be cheap racing and anyone who has spent big money modifying bikes to run in Clubsport are ruining it for everyone else who just want to have fun without spending a fortune.

I think it should be 7 year old bikes, rather than 5 and they should go off the year model of the bike, not the compliance plate. I also think any bike that has had internal mods done to the engine should be at least 2 years older than the eligible year, so they would need to be at least 9 years old. Why? Because a 7 year old Superbike or Supersport will still be competitive with a standard new bike and could run in with the 'big spenders', but they have a very unfair advantage over standard (read cheap!) old bikes.

So let the haters start hating.

No haters from the Targa/Teen Spirit party ...

[Marshy]

So let the haters start hating.

Nope, I completely agree with you Nelso. In fact, I've got a bunch of ideas for changes to the way the championship prizes work to encourage people like me to only run in the 600 class, and leave clubsport to older bikes/lower budgets. In any competition, people wanting to win will maximise their chances within the rules (ignoring people that cheat), so the proper way to change behaviour is to change the rules. Like I said earlier, I'm the person advocating most strongly for change, which will disadvantage me most of all!

I'll post up some of my thoughts for comment over the next few days.

[James]

This is going to upset a few people, but, I think if people are going out buying the latest eligible bike for Clubsport, or modifying their engines to be competitive, they should be racing in Unlimited and 600's, not Clubsport. If you are throwing that much money at it, you are in the wrong class. Clubsport should be cheap racing and anyone who has spent big money modifying bikes to run in Clubsport are ruining it for everyone else who just want to have fun without spending a fortune.

I think it should be 7 year old bikes, rather than 5 and they should go off the year model of the bike, not the compliance plate. I also think any bike that has had internal mods done to the engine should be at least 2 years older than the eligible year, so they would need to be at least 9 years old. Why? Because a 7 year old Superbike or Supersport will still be competitive with a standard new bike and could run in with the 'big spenders', but they have a very unfair advantage over standard (read cheap!) old bikes.

So let the haters start hating.

This makes perfect sense. Hate the haters!

[Stu23]

cheap old bikes is the domain on PCRA....... my bike is an 06 model, April actually, so will be 8 years old next year ( if the damn thing is repairable after going bang ) .. I bought this bike as I knew the FRAME design hadn't changed much in 7 years or so.. to me the chassis side is far ore important and with the R6 they got it right pretty much straight away with minimal changes through its life.
Clubsport has always followed supersport regs........ why would you enter a class if you do not like the rules. I will always be at a disadvantage with my size and my weight ( although im working on my weight ) some of you I race against weigh less than 70kgs at 4kg / effective rwbhp im giving away 6rwbhp do the math... its not looking so uneven now is it.. If you less than 70kgs DO NOT SPEAK TO ME EVER AGAIN lol This is my penalty for playing league and soccer and now getting on a bit in years If I can follow the rules and make it a bit more even then all good. If you feel the need to have your engine worked then go for it as long as your following the supersport 600 rules its all good by me my bike has race cams in it designed for mid range and they are timed , it has a full system on it, it is running std compression, but it was put together very very well...... but now it is dead :( sniff sniff so not as highly modified as some might think at least in my case

[Mr.Ed]

I just think that whatever rule change they want to implement can't be done for next year. It's already November... ppl have bought bikes/invested $ and etc, it's just not fair and it would be reckless to do it like that. Why not do it like they do on F1/MotoGP and announce a change in the rules for 2015? That way ppl can do whatever they want next year and plan ahead.

[Little Mick]

cheap old bikes is the domain on PCRA....... my bike is an 06 model, April actually, so will be 8 years old next year ( if the damn thing is repairable after going bang ) .. I bought this bike as I knew the FRAME design hadn't changed much in 7 years or so.. to me the chassis side is far ore important and with the R6 they got it right pretty much straight away with minimal changes through its life.
Clubsport has always followed supersport regs........ why would you enter a class if you do not like the rules. I will always be at a disadvantage with my size and my weight ( although im working on my weight ) some of you I race against weigh less than 70kgs at 4kg / effective rwbhp im giving away 6rwbhp do the math... its not looking so uneven now is it.. If you less than 70kgs DO NOT SPEAK TO ME EVER AGAIN lol This is my penalty for playing league and soccer and now getting on a bit in years If I can follow the rules and make it a bit more even then all good. If you feel the need to have your engine worked then go for it as long as your following the supersport 600 rules its all good by me my bike has race cams in it designed for mid range and they are timed , it has a full system on it, it is running std compression, but it was put together very very well...... but now it is dead :( sniff sniff so not as highly modified as some might think at least in my case

Are you talking to Me??

so pulling the old "power to weight ratio" hey stu???

interestingly, TON has changed the rules for FOz and FX600 to be only privateers to even the field...

Ironically...I raised this with Steve Wyres and Jan at the beginning of the year (changes to clubby), but then I go out and run my zx6 in FOz against mostly litre bikes... there is a subclass (600 SS) that makes it fun none the less...

agree with longer lag time for bikes to become eligible and the suggest from the big fella re penalty for mods...but how do you police it? if you can make that simple, then it can be implemented... most people dont know what make of bike they are looking at without stickers (me included) so knowing year model, has it been modified etc is a overwhelming to implement for those that are doing it. injection and traditional vs USD suspension are pretty obvious to identify)

Open to ideas!

cheers

little Mick

[Little Mick]

I just think that whatever rule change they want to implement can't be done for next year. It's already November... ppl have bought bikes/invested $ and etc, it's just not fair and it would be reckless to do it like that. Why not do it like they do on F1/MotoGP and announce a change in the rules for 2015? That way ppl can do whatever they want next year and plan ahead.

to be honest- anyone who has bought a 2008 plated bike for CS has a competitive bike for 600. sure they may not get double time, but its not like they cant race?

[Stu23]

The only way I think most people will be happy if they are stuck with an old carbie bike is to split the clubsport class into 2 groups, split at some year, If you want to say 2002 ( this does away with most FI bikes, except the gxsr ) upside down forks radial brakes etc.. Is this what people want with older bikes ? It has been raised before I know ?

And before you all say but he has an 06....I was racing a 2000 R6 from year 07 to 09/10 against 05 model bikes ( with an odd 06 ! ) wink wink remember that one ! So yes I know what your up against, I worked hard on that bike and was relatively successful still.... If your fast , you can be fast on most well set up bikes, not power, just well set up..

As for policing mods there is no way for st George to do this, no way at all.....even TON could not do this , so has now conceded some extra things are allowed

[Little Mick]

The only way I think most people will be happy if they are stuck with an old carbie bike is to split the clubsport class into 2 groups, split at some year, If you want to say 2002 ( this does away with most FI bikes, except the gxsr ) upside down forks radial brakes etc.. Is this what people want with older bikes ? It has been raised before I know ?

And before you all say but he has an 06....I was racing a 2000 R6 from year 07 to 09/10 against 05 model bikes ( with an odd 06 ! ) wink wink remember that one ! So yes I know what your up against, I worked hard on that bike and was relatively successful still.... If your fast , you can be fast on most well set up bikes, not power, just well set up..

As for policing mods there is no way for st George to do this, no way at all.....even TON could not do this , so has now conceded some extra things are allowed

agree Stu - Ryan was into the 1:05s at wacky on my 99 R6 giving me a hurry along on the 09 zx6...

I found that there was only 1 second for me in the newer bike when raced back to back.. Maurice has the same experience (albeit 5-6 seconds faster, but both bikes still within 1 second)...

breaking it up a little gives everyone a chance to have a go a the championship...

'05 makes sense... - '02 and my bike just got popular

Under the current rules, next year I will have 2 bikes eligible for Clubby.. If chasing the championship, it would make sense to run the newer bike on many levels, but I dont feel that is in the spirit of the sport (in my world at least)... and the Ol girl is fun to ride but will wait and see... next year is a world away at the moment

[Stu23]

I don't see the 05 being a good year to split.... If indeed it ever is. These bikes in 05 are almost as good and technologically advanced as the latest bikes... almost.. It is not a clear enough split hence why I chose 02.. No cbr600rr , no FI R6 , no full on zxrrrrrs

[Nelso]

cheap old bikes is the domain on PCRA.......

Nope, sorry Stu, I thought the same until we bought PCRA bikes and discovered there's nothing cheap about them. As the bikes get rarer, they get more expensive. Try to pick up a period 6 bike cheap these days, it's impossible and period 5 bikes are even more expensive. At the moment, pre-modern aren't too bad, but they are on the increase as they get older.

At the end of the day, your bike is already 7 years old and if no one was allowed a modified engine, you would never have had to spend the money on the rebuild in the first place and would probably still have a reliable, running, standard bike; which would have cost far less than it has so far and will in the near future.

The problem with weighing so much more (remember I'm 124kg, so I'm giving away far more of a disadvantage than anyone) is you are already disadvantaged, so when others have worked engines it makes it impossible to compete with unless you go out and spend extra money to try to make up the difference. So many times on Sunday I got stuck behind much slower riders with modified bikes because they had so much more power than me (combined with the weight advantage) and as I overtook them coming out of corners they would then pull back in front of me and pull away on any of the straight bits. Should I have to go out and spend thousands of dollars just so I can have a slight disadvantage rather than a huge one?

The problem with allowing engine mods is that it costs everyone shitloads, just to be on an even playing field; and the only winners out of it are the mechanics and the big losers are the racers. At least my idea (which I just pulled out of my arse) would allow ex-prostock and superstock bikes as well as superbikes and supersport bikes to be eligible, but the more modified ones just have to wait a couple more years before they fit into that category. Remember, there's always the Unlimited and 600 classes for those that want to run the latest and greatest, so it's not like they are missing out entirely; they are just not getting an unfair advantage over the poor budget conscious racer that just wants to run a cheap old bike.

This has given me an idea. I have a modification to my previous rules outlined above. As long as you are over 110kg, you can run engine mods in the 7 year old bike and don't have to wait the extra 2 years. At lease that way you won't be disadvantaged for being 'big boned'.

[Nelso]

I just think that whatever rule change they want to implement can't be done for next year. It's already November... ppl have bought bikes/invested $ and etc, it's just not fair and it would be reckless to do it like that. Why not do it like they do on F1/MotoGP and announce a change in the rules for 2015? That way ppl can do whatever they want next year and plan ahead.

They can just race in Unlimited or 600's. It's not like they are going to miss out.

[Stu23]

Hahaha I like that Rob........ However re the engine mod expense statement , after speaking to my engine builder ( hes good with yamahas ) , R6's are know to just go bang, modified, stock it makes no difference...... some he has seen explode going down pit lane after a rebuild, just a weakness..... inherent in its design unfortunately... Bike racing is expensive, no matter what, always has been, always will be. We could all go bucket racing or scooter racing.. The problem is also that 7 year old bikes need even more love and maint thus incurring greater expense. Don't forget, mine has cams only.....and even these arnt hi reving hi top end ones..... If you really want to stress an engine lets talk about ECU's and adding a touch of over rev.. anyone for 17500 revs !!! Now that's an expense in the making hahaha

Re PCRA I guess, do you want to race for fun ? Or do you expect to win ? lots of guys buy cheap old bikes for fun and race them with pcra and clubsport in st george..... and learn their craft

[Nelso]

I found that there was only 1 second for me in the newer bike when raced back to back..

If it's 'only' 1 second I think you should let me go off the line 1 second earlier than everyone else. I second is a big difference in a race! 5 seconds is an eternity by the end of the race.

[dan]

I guess an important starting point is working out exactly what the intention of clubsport is and going from there. Dates, restrictions etc etc mean nothing until the spirit of the competition is defined and agreed upon.

[Little Mick]

This has given me an idea. I have a modification to my previous rules outlined above. As long as you are over 110kg, you can run engine mods in the 7 year old bike and don't have to wait the extra 2 years. At lease that way you won't be disadvantaged for being 'big boned'.

Nelso...I Call your new rule, and up the steaks... to qualify for the above rule, you need to have either - 3 pies, half a chicken and chips or a 450g Rump with mushroom sauce and a bowl of wedges.... before each race..

[Stu23]

Dan it has been running the way it has for years and years........ the class is not new !! and has been fine....... its only recently that it has been questioned by some

[Nelso]

Nelso...I Call your new rule, and up the steaks... to qualify for the above rule, you need to have either - 3 pies, half a chicken and chips or a 450g Rump with mushroom sauce and a bowl of wedges.... before each race..

You should have to carry a pillion! or ride a Harley to make up the difference in weight, or race your 600 against 1000's.

[Carl-52]

Nelso and Mick... I up the steaks again!!! Even if i ate triple the amount of food specified above, i still wouldnt have gained any weight or size, so maybe an age rule is required? I see clubsport as a class for older guys, newbies on older bikes, or guys who race for fun to stay away from the slim, mean, indestructables with no sense and large appetites!!!! I do hope to join the clubsports soon on my 06 r6, if dad hasnt destroyed it by then.... its good to know i could be racing against guys who will actually give me an inch and who i can learn from

[Little Mick]

haha I like it Carl. Ulysyss club racers You aint calling your Old man Old are you? he still pays the bills

I hope you eat those three extra serves and have sufficient indigestion that you wave me by at some point...

[Stu23]

Cheeky Bugger !! ill cut you in two

[Little Mick]

You should have to carry a pillion! or ride a Harley to make up the difference in weight, or race your 600 against 1000's.

This.. and its so much fun on the right tracks...not so on drag strips

[Carl-52]

indigestion?? you mean fart boost engaged!!! its like a NOS shot but less civilised

[Nelso]

Dan it has been running the way it has for years and years........ the class is not new !! and has been fine....... its only recently that it has been questioned by some

Bloody whingers! Questioning the way things are run!!!

To be fair, it's only recently that 5 year old bikes (4 year old models in some cases) have had such an advantage over 8 or 9 year old bikes and with the Retro class not changing there is no competitive place for the 95-2003 year bikes to compete. There is always the option to just leave it as is and have it roll over each year, but why not look at improving things rather than just sticking with tradition?

[dan]

Dan it has been running the way it has for years and years........ the class is not new !! and has been fine....... its only recently that it has been questioned by some

I understand but I'm asking what is the actual intention of it? Is it supposed to be an entry level / 'reasonable' cost category?

If most of the bikes in Clubsport are also getting raced in 600 doesnt that raise questions as to where it actually fits?

Being new to club racing I don't know all the history of how things have been decided so I'm just trying to get my head around it all.

[Stu23]

you can race anything you like in 600's........ no one is stopping you or anyone else........ I guess the question is how competitive do you expect / want to be ?

you can race anything in clubsport 600...( up to 08 ) ........ no one is stopping you or anyone else.......... I guess the question is how competitive do you expect / want to be ?

Hehehe not being funny, but its club racing and to SS regs that's is all ... oh dear I know I know its a fair question Dan, but strictly speaking my answer is correct

Personally, I race in clubby because its slightly more relaxed racing, most of the guys fund themselves and so understand that we all need to go to work on Monday ! a little more mature shall we say

haha if racers can ever be called mature !! the rules are to supersport regs because it is IMPOSSIBLE for the club to regulate anything else.....people always cheat / bend the rules....

big bore motors, cams , ECU's suspension, quick Shifters, exhaust systems Power comanders the list is endless, this is why SS regs are chosen... its just easier to manage

plus lots of us like to tinker with our bikes, in the shed with yer mates..... its kinda relaxing and peaceful if you know what I mean

[Baddie]

Nelso...I Call your new rule, and up the steaks... to qualify for the above rule, you need to have either - 3 pies, half a chicken and chips or a 450g Rump with mushroom sauce and a bowl of wedges.... before each race..

I'm happy to seat on that same table with Nelso and take on above specs.... after watching all your videos I cant wait to run my Stock Honda in whatever I can.

[Nelso]

This has got me thinking (dangerous, I know). I know a bloke who has an '08 ex-supersport winning R6 with over 135HP and does 1:36's, who's ears pricked up when he heard he could run it in Clubsport next year. He would come in as a D grader because he has only raced under an AASA license. He would clean up the club championship if he competed at every round because he would dominate Clubsport, where as he would have a bit of competition in the 600's.

Maybe the answer is to make the points for Clubsport races worth less than the other classes to discourage people spending up big to get an advantage in it.

[Stu23]

Fastest ive ever gone round EC is only a 1:42 Rob, if he wants to, I would say fine no problem its not like I see the top 4 or 5 riders anyway lol one more wont make a difference to me at the creek . That is one fast R6, id love to see it run and listen to it at full revs

[dan]

Maybe the answer is to make the points for Clubsport races worth less than the other classes to discourage people spending up big to get an advantage in it.

How does this work? Are points given across classes?

[Negrogrande]

I wish my suzi was an 08 :(

clubsport guys have all the fun....

(and I'm slow as shit)

[Stu23]

you have a class championship dan and you have the overall st George club championship.... the points you score in your class championship ( nominated ) count towards the overall club championship

[Nelso]

Fastest ive ever gone round EC is only a 1:42 Rob, if he wants to, I would say fine no problem its not like I see the top 4 or 5 riders anyway lol one more wont make a difference to me at the creek . That is one fast R6, id love to see it run and listen to it at full revs

I've seen the crazy bugger back it into turn 1 too! He tips in after the 100m marker and THEN backs off! Personally, I'd rather see him compete with Blair and Levy than running around miles ahead of the next person, in Clubsport.

[dan]

I've seen the crazy bugger back it into turn 1 too! He tips in after the 100m marker and THEN backs off! Personally, I'd rather see him compete with Blair and Levy than running around miles ahead of the next person, in Clubsport.

Everyone else would as well!

[Mr.Ed]

Oh stop it, Nelso... I sold that bike ages ago!

[Marshy]

Oh stop it, Nelso... I sold that bike ages ago!

[Little Mick]

Maybe the answer is to make the points for Clubsport races worth less than the other classes to discourage people spending up big to get an advantage in it.

sort of defeats the purpose of giving everyone a chance at the prize??

[chubb]

Why doesn't he go race in FX or ASBK and leave the club racing to guys who aren't fast enough yet and just want to have fun.

What's the point knowing you're an A grader in AASA and come in as D grade in MA and clean up. Sportsmanship has gone out the window.