St George handicap replacement

[senator8]

The calculations are quite simple the calculating not so simple manually. I simple program or spreadsheet is probably the only way. Still a simple task compared to working out handicaps

[dan]

Do I dare ask how they work out handicaps?

[Little Mick]

asking is not an issue... clear response that is repeatable harder task...

It is actually as per the regs, but is confusing in a lot of ways the way its worded...

[Mr.Ed]

Grading only applies to experience. Qualifying is not counted for anything.
Times are only used if you are in the top or bottom 30% of your field for 75% or more of your races.

Yep, I like this. It also eliminates the danger of getting great one-off laps (i.e. following a faster rider) and being bumped a grade.

[Nelso]

Seriously though, yeah I'd go up to C. D has to be renamed NOVICE though

On a side note, Clubsport qualifying on the Sunday broken down like this - make of it what you will:

1. D grade
2. AB
3. AB
4. AB
5. AB
6. D
7. D
8. D
9. C
10. C

If Rick's system were to be used, the top two positions would be D graders, as Leanne would still be in D grade. 10 years since racing and only one race meet would mean she would have started and stayed in D grade. Do you think it is really fair to have Rich and Dan up against her and Grasshopper in D grade?

[Little Mick]

good point - returning riders should be a C as minimum..

[senator8]

If Rick's system were to be used, the top two positions would be D graders, as Leanne would still be in D grade. 10 years since racing and only one race meet would mean she would have started and stayed in D grade. Do you think it is really fair to have Rich and Dan up against her and Grasshopper in D grade?

Is it fair the way it is now? There will always be exceptions. Finer details to account for different scenarios like Leanne's can still be catered for. Maybe she doesn't have to return to D grade. Maybe she returns to C grade and will be bumped to B after the first year because she is running in the top 30% of the field consistently?

[Nelso]

Is it fair the way it is now?

No it's not. I didn't mean to insult your idea, I was merely pointing out one of the situations that your idea wouldn't work for. I think coming back as a C grader no matter how long you have been away is a better idea as you already know race-craft and how to start and just need to find your corner speed again and you're back in the mix, whereas a genuine D grader shouldn't have any of those skills. Keith Greentree hadn't raced for 5 years and raced the last round of St George and won C grade on both days easily. Graham McCarthy is a perfect example of why an ex A grader should never be put in D grade. I just don't know how they did it last year and then again this year.

The biggest problem with the system now is the fact that you have Terry O'Neil doing his own thing and MA doing another. Little Mick admitted that TON put him back to D grade for his races despite MA giving him a C grading. So MA think D grade is only there for absolute beginners, where as TON thinks someone doing 1:06's and 1:44's is a D grader. Mark Weaver raced a few FX rounds and one St George round, then (the next year) competed at St George as a D grader (again) doing 1:39's because there is no communication between AASA and MA. If you look at the majority of riders that are in the wrong grade, you will find that most of them race FX and that is what needs to be fixed more than anything else.

I also think that RYM should be included as racing as you are learning starts, passing etc, just like 'real' racing.

[senator8]

All good mate, I wasn't insulted and anyone else who thinks my answers have been a bit short. Been typing all day on my phone in between things and thus truncating the replies if possible. It's just a alternative idea to bang about that I've had in my head for ages.

[Little Mick]

The biggest problem with the system now is the fact that you have Terry O'Neil doing his own thing and MA doing another. Little Mick admitted that TON put him back to D grade for his races despite MA giving him a C grading. So MA think D grade is only there for absolute beginners, where as TON thinks someone doing 1:06's and 1:44's is a D grader. Mark Weaver raced a few FX rounds and one St George round, then (the next year) competed at St George as a D grader (again) doing 1:39's because there is no communication between AASA and MA. If you look at the majority of riders that are in the wrong grade, you will find that most of them race FX and that is what needs to be fixed more than anything else.

I also think that RYM should be included as racing as you are learning starts, passing etc, just like 'real' racing.

Not sure I agree thats the problem Rob. If TON just went off the MA grades it would be guaranteed to be broken... TON gave me the option and based on the times the C graders were doing (not just 1 or 2 but a large proportion of them) - I fit more appropriately into D grade. If I went to ASBK, I would be D grade, if I would be allowed to compete at all 'cause I aint fast enough...

Chrispy ran 1:41s at wacky "* Edit: this should say EC" and was miles behind the rest of the 600 field at the EC asbk round this year (he was on a triumph 675) and did 1:03 or so in May at wacky.. (he also did a 1:35.7 at EC on his panagale a few weeks ago...) - Chris is a C grader (MA grade)....

Here are the results from the last round of FX600 2012 at EC - full circuit

http://computime.com.au/meetings/201...FX12_6_R27.pdf

Mick Lockhart - C grade - 1:58.8
Callum Spriggs - D grade - 1:59.5
Josh McGragh - D grade - 1:58.9
Mick Blair - C Grade - 1:59.1
Aiden Wagner - D grade - 1:58.9
Alex Penklis - D Grade - 2:07.4

In some of these cases, this was the first year in FX and possibly road racing. Some may have raced in MX (so under an MA licence) so data should have been available with MA at least and their licence should have carried over?

Penko is no slouch but these guys are a different level of speed...


Note - This year - Callum Spriggs and Mick Blair are both B graders, and Mick Lockhart is an A grader...

If the MA grades were correct - this whole issue wouldnt be one..

[Phat3R]

Another silly question ... thought experiment ...

What if a rider could just chose their own grade for a meet (lets say other than say Novice/D)? Aren't the prizes considerably better for higher grades? Wouldn't you chose the grade you thought you had the best chance of winning the most expensive prize? It first prize in A was $1000, B was $100 and C was $10 and you where JC or Graham which grade would you chose to race in? If you were fresh out of D which grade would you chose?

[Little Mick]

what prize money?

remember the intent of the grades... any prizes would be aligned with past the post results if deemed appropriate, but most are championship based and its more about consistency

[Stu23]

Anyone racing in ASBK or FX 600's should have a requirement of being an A grade or B grade minimum... This is the Countries premier racing yes !

You don't get Novices or C graders running around in BSB, its kinda silly

D and C and some B is where a good reasonable to high level CLUB racer should be

The whole thing is hmmm broken !

[Mr.Ed]

In an ideal world, yes... but I don't think there are enough A graders to make up the grids.

[Stu23]

D graders running around doing 1:36s etc are not D graders are they ... this is my point really they should be A / B and this should be mandatory for ASBK and FX600 ...... Depends on which organisation has the balls to put grading and safety 1st instead of there bottom line

[Phat3R]

what prize money?

OK so no prize money per race meet then, told you I know SFA. FYI having a look through MoMS some of the other areas like flat track (I recall) have a clause in there that if you beat a rider of higher grade you get the higher grades, higher prize money, but I digress.

So the prizes are for the whole year of racing, and so the riders grade is locked down for that period ... ie the Championship ...

But same thing goes ... if the D grade prize was just a token prize (ie a plastic cup and a $10 voucher) and the A grade prize was something flash (say a MC) and there were prizes for the other grades two that were in between, why would you want to race in a lower class when you could race a higher one and win bigger prizes and more prestige? There is a trade off between your chance of winning something and how much you win, but now using incentives to allow the individual to decide their grade for the year. OK there could be some restrictions in terms of what you can chose, but it's not like there is some sort of safety aspect here ... they let all the grades out on track at the same time.

In the end people seem to feel they are in too higher grade, too lower grade, "I should be in this or that ... blah, blah" ... fine run the grade you want, that you think you should be in. If you want to clean up C grade and win some plastique and $10, fine, but your equally as fast companions will be in A grade winning bigger hunks of plastique and more serious prizes. Slower riders will not bother with higher grades as they would have no chance of winning, so they would kick down to a level they either have a chance, or there is no lower grade.

Might take a few years to sort out are various types try and game it ... but too much down grading by faster riders to B & C and there is an opportunity for slow riders if they chose a grade above them and walk away with prizes others have left on the table, because they chose lower grades than they are capable of running.

Also fills the criteria of allowing peers to stick together somewhat ... should they want to ... but there is a counter argument there. I see myself as a new slow C grader ... someone like Dan could possibly do very well in B grade. Still means we can race one another (ie Dan can ride past me like I am standing still ), but I don't think the system should hold Dan back for a series of races if he's capable of competing in the higher grade with riders that should be faster.

Another aspect here is that there is now self accountability ... riders can't complain that a grade was foisted upon them, they chose it, they can now explain to their peers and others why when asked.

Remember I'm just brainstorming here ... that's typically part A of problem solving. Yes I have a preference for market based solutions rather than imposing sets of complex rules to guide behaviours.

All comments welcomed ... well other than pure negativity, well ... maybe "it's just stupid" is OK?.

remember the intent of the grades... any prizes would be aligned with past the post results if deemed appropriate, but most are championship based and its more about consistency

There have been multiple interpretations of the intent of grades expressed in this thread, which one are you referring to Mick?

[Baddie]

Hold the phone 166+ entries...I'm guessing there's a few issue's with the handicap system.
Its a shame we don't have a St George board member on this forum that could make comment's..

[Phat3R]

Hold the phone 166+ entries...I'm guessing there's a few issue's with the handicap system.
Its a shame we don't have a St George board member on this forum that could make comment's..

It's turned into a rolled together handicap / grading thread ... probably my bad.

Who's the StG bored memba?

[Phat3R]

Found this for ACU on how the poms do grading. Well I think those are grades?

uk-lic.jpg

http://www.acu.org.uk/Uploaded/1/Doc...ace-Notes2.pdf

[Marshy]

Aren't they licence types, not grades?

[Little Mick]

Wow..so much to catch up on


Some randoms....

if only A&B would be allowed to compete in FX /ASBK- then where are they? look at the numbers in ASBK? there were 50 odd at rnd 6 - in total... its costs $$ to go racing. I know 2 A graders near me that were at the front of the game, but without the $$ they have had to sit out the year..

if we had multiple tracks and $$ to go racing, then there would be a fair amount of focus on fixing this and in a way it would tend to sort itself out..MX is very popular in Aus - not sure they have the same issues?

even if a St G memember was on the forum, they would not be able to respond on behalf of the club as its discussion and decision by committee. The best you could hope for is they understood your concerns. As members, we all have the right and opportunity to rock up to the meetings and table our concerns and issues (and suggestions) as Nick and Rick are doing.

IMHO, the intent of the grades is to endeavour to provide similar capability competition... Safety does come into it, but its more about like for like competitors.. There will also be someone who is new coming into it and faster than the pack..hell look at MM... and there are also people who find their mojo through a season and go forward in leaps and bounds...Senator, Chrispy, Rhino, etc

I like the idea of different levels of licences, but again, is the industry big enough here?

Need to take a step back and see how we grow the sport- sure there may be a few that are after the "prize money"-- there were 3 entries in total for the FX500 - $100000 prize money.. No takers? Most people didnt see themselves with a chance so didnt enter...

racing for prize money is flawed as the kitty isnt big enough to cover the cost... its all about sponsorship and exposure..

My notes above have gone all over the place so suggest we get back to point - is the anything fundamentally flawed with Senators Format? lets try to break it to confirm it holds water? add something for the anomolies and aliens? document it and present it?

[Stu23]

they are the same thing Nick

[Stu23]

I left the Uk with my National licence, didnt bother with the International ! lol

[Phat3R]

I found the AMA grading system too, for more ideas ... just at the beginning ... again they seem to use licenses as the English do, which kinda translates to grades here.

http://amaproracing.cdn.racersites.c...3-Rulebook.pdf
[As an aside ... I notice the specifically ban intravenous re hydration ... if it's not banned under ASBK ... could be a boost if racing in Darwin]

[Marshy]

First thing I noticed was that they require every rider/team to have a CB radio to listen for all the race control directions!! Tops idea!

[dan]

First thing I noticed was that they require every rider/team to have a CB radio to listen for all the race control directions!! Tops idea!

Oath. Or they could turn the speakers up / put speakers in the garages.

[Little Mick]

radios are a great concept.. we had them when racing Nascar...even if they were rented out from the timing guys like transponders, it would be handy..

[Phat3R]

Canadian race license system ... chapter 2 classification of riders ... again similar to the AMA and UK ...

RACE Rulebook .pdf

[Nelso]

Not sure I agree thats the problem Rob. If TON just went off the MA grades it would be guaranteed to be broken... TON gave me the option and based on the times the C graders were doing (not just 1 or 2 but a large proportion of them) - I fit more appropriately into D grade. If I went to ASBK, I would be D grade, if I would be allowed to compete at all 'cause I aint fast enough...

Chrispy ran 1:41s at wacky "* Edit: this should say EC" and was miles behind the rest of the 600 field at the EC asbk round this year (he was on a triumph 675) and did 1:03 or so in May at wacky.. (he also did a 1:35.7 at EC on his panagale a few weeks ago...) - Chris is a C grader (MA grade)....

Here are the results from the last round of FX600 2012 at EC - full circuit

http://computime.com.au/meetings/201...FX12_6_R27.pdf

Mick Lockhart - C grade - 1:58.8
Callum Spriggs - D grade - 1:59.5
Josh McGragh - D grade - 1:58.9
Mick Blair - C Grade - 1:59.1
Aiden Wagner - D grade - 1:58.9
Alex Penklis - D Grade - 2:07.4

In some of these cases, this was the first year in FX and possibly road racing. Some may have raced in MX (so under an MA licence) so data should have been available with MA at least and their licence should have carried over?

Penko is no slouch but these guys are a different level of speed...


Note - This year - Callum Spriggs and Mick Blair are both B graders, and Mick Lockhart is an A grader...

If the MA grades were correct - this whole issue wouldnt be one..

Sounds to me like all of these guys except Penko should be A and B graders, not C and D. I also think anyone racing ASBK should be an A or B grader and FX should only be eligible to A, B and C graders. The only place for D graders should be in club racing so they can learn in a supportive, fun environment. Why aren't these fast guys all regraded into the appropriate grades by ASBK and FX? Why is it that someone doing 1:36's at EC is still considered a C or D grader by ASBK and FX promoters? This just adds to my contempt of the system that's in place when you have clubs that have been around for decades trying to do it one way and two self centred promoters doing it a completely different way to suit themselves.

[Nelso]

D graders running around doing 1:36s etc are not D graders are they ... this is my point really they should be A / B and this should be mandatory for ASBK and FX600 ...... Depends on which organisation has the balls to put grading and safety 1st instead of there bottom line

Bingo.

[senator8]

The reason that FX and ASBK won't ever or anytime soon exclude anyone is they don't have enough on the grids of the premier classes already.
Last round ASBK had around 50 entries total.
This weekend at PI with the V8s there is 6 of them in total. Check natsoft yourself. It's embarrassing for the sport to say the least.

[Mr.Ed]

Yes but how much of that is because of the frustration caused by the lack of clear rules and guidelines? 6 riders on a race that will have live national coverage is strange to say the least... I seriously don't believe that the reason the grid is so small is because we don't have enough ppl in the sport. Just check any grid on FOz or clubsport and you'll see the punters are out there.

[senator8]

Too many rules you mean. We are off on another tangent here. But both classes you mentioned mine and many others bikes are technically eligible for by way of modifications. The hobbyist, clubmen, enthusiast etc want to build/customise and race their bike. Clubman subclass for privateers in the majors with a fair grading system and you have a winner
Maybe

[Little Mick]

interesting that it appears to be ASBK and FX that are to blame for not regrading/ reclassifying people... unfortunately, This is about the MA grading and technically, the promotor can make recommendations for changes, but it is up to MA to follow them through... now the dilemma... FX gets criticised for letting people nominate an alternate class (doesn't mean it is accepted automatically, but people can raise it if they feel they should be higher or lower) and not adhering to the MA allocation.. seems contradictory to me...

In the case I detailed above, it is obvious that the fast guys were regraded to the appropriate grade this year. So it does happen, but maybe the issue is that people are entered in a grade at the beginning of the year and for championship reasons, are kept in that grade for the duration of the year.

if championships were not at stake (and any specific prizes associated with the championships like wr250s etc) then mid year regrading wouldnt be an issue...

What about this.... regardings happen through the year so on a round basis, there is more parity. For championship points tho, the grade you are at the beginning of the year is where you round points get credited towards...

example
a rider starts as aC grader at beginning of the year... after 2 rounds of a 5 round championship they get bumped to B grade (for the reasons above that they are outclassing the competition).

for round 1 and 2 - they compete as C grader.
for rounds 3 to 5 - they compete as B grader for the round points.

as far as championship perspective, they are competing in the C grade championship for that year as that is the grade they were at the beginning of the year...
so they are not penalised for improving through the yearand the rest of the C graders are competing for round outcomes like for like..
With the racer who has been bumped, racing against the B graders will mean he will have tougher competition and thus not get as many points as maybe the C graders so the Chapionship is still open..

[Phat3R]

interesting that it appears to be ASBK and FX that are to blame for not regrading/ reclassifying people... unfortunately, This is about the MA grading and technically, the promotor can make recommendations for changes, but it is up to MA to follow them through... now the dilemma... FX gets criticised for letting people nominate an alternate class (doesn't mean it is accepted automatically, but people can raise it if they feel they should be higher or lower) and not adhering to the MA allocation.. seems contradictory to me...

In the case I detailed above, it is obvious that the fast guys were regraded to the appropriate grade this year. So it does happen, but maybe the issue is that people are entered in a grade at the beginning of the year and for championship reasons, are kept in that grade for the duration of the year.

if championships were not at stake (and any specific prizes associated with the championships like wr250s etc) then mid year regrading wouldnt be an issue...

What about this.... regardings happen through the year so on a round basis, there is more parity. For championship points tho, the grade you are at the beginning of the year is where you round points get credited towards...

example
a rider starts as aC grader at beginning of the year... after 2 rounds of a 5 round championship they get bumped to B grade (for the reasons above that they are outclassing the competition).

for round 1 and 2 - they compete as C grader.
for rounds 3 to 5 - they compete as B grader for the round points.

as far as championship perspective, they are competing in the C grade championship for that year as that is the grade they were at the beginning of the year...
so they are not penalised for improving through the yearand the rest of the C graders are competing for round outcomes like for like..
With the racer who has been bumped, racing against the B graders will mean he will have tougher competition and thus not get as many points as maybe the C graders so the Chapionship is still open..

Interesting idea ... I had reservations about only reclassifying every 12 months, but could see why it was done ... that solves the problem.

With that in mind. Could we look at providing a rider that fits into that 30% of top of field over a round, the option of moving up a grade next round. They don't have to take it, but they will quickly get into the grouping of riders their skills are closest aligned to. Note it's not experience based ... but some people are faster at gaining experience and able to go faster than others over the same period.

[Nelso]

The way it used to happen was the rider would get bumped up mid season and take whatever points they had accrued so far in the season into the new class with them. Leanne said the grading system worked so much better back in the 90's than the clusterfuck that is happening now. There were also much bigger grids and far more race meets back then, so maybe there is a connection between the broken system we have now and the lower numbers.

[Mr.Ed]

Too many rules you mean. We are off on another tangent here. But both classes you mentioned mine and many others bikes are technically eligible for by way of modifications. The hobbyist, clubmen, enthusiast etc want to build/customise and race their bike. Clubman subclass for privateers in the majors with a fair grading system and you have a winner
Maybe

This!

Imagine a perfect world where you would have ppl on their right grades so you could have a SBK class where AB riders comply to superstock rules and CD have free mods... it's up to the rider to decide if he wants to invest on a bike that will make him faster but then get bumped a grade and lose the edge he had on the AB riders and etc. One can dream, hey...

[Marshy]

The way it used to happen was the rider would get bumped up mid season and take whatever points they had accrued so far in the season into the new class with them. Leanne said the grading system worked so much better back in the 90's than the clusterfuck that is happening now. There were also much bigger grids and far more race meets back then, so maybe there is a connection between the broken system we have now and the lower numbers.

Agreed! I got bumped mid-season, and it was no big deal. There was much more emphasis on getting people quickly and fairly into the right grade for their speed, rather than let them have a year (or two) doing 37s in D grade.....

[dan]

When I grow up I want to be a 1.37 D Grader haha

[Little Mick]

First thing I noticed was that they require every rider/team to have a CB radio to listen for all the race control directions!! Tops idea!

Agree with you Nick... if you are getting the results repeatedly, whether in times or places, then getting bumped shouldnt be an issue

[chubb]

When I grow up I want to be a 1.37 D Grader haha

not for you C grade next year

[dan]

not for you C grade next year

Seems like a done deal. I'll sit on the porch with my crutches waiting for the magic letter from St George.

[Mr.Ed]

Nah... the thing is, there's no rule. You may just be in D for another 3 years.

[Marshy]

I hear that bribes are gratefully accepted.....

[Phat3R]

Nah... the thing is, there's no rule. You may just be in D for another 3 years.

Or you may be an A, B or C grader ... just spin the lucky wheel of club grading

[dan]

I'm just waiting for them to start getting really creative and come up with AC / BC / AD mix up grades

[Little Mick]

So Rick B,

do you have enough info to draft a set of rules for submission based on all our banter and suggestions ?

I think there is a solid piece there to get a draft around for review prior to submission... The sooner it gets infront of the committee then MA the bettererer...

Bottom line is it may not make it into the regs till 2015 so that the appropriates can get a say...so for most of us, we will more than likely be in the appropriate corresponding grades by then, but the newcomers will still benefit.

[Phat3R]

So Rick B,

do you have enough info to draft a set of rules for submission based on all our banter and suggestions ?

I think there is a solid piece there to get a draft around for review prior to submission... The sooner it gets infront of the committee then MA the bettererer...

Bottom line is it may not make it into the regs till 2015 so that the appropriates can get a say...so for most of us, we will more than likely be in the appropriate corresponding grades by then, but the newcomers will still benefit.

Hi Mick,

I wasn't intending on wrapping this up yet. I'm intending to attend the StG fortnightly meeting on Wed next week where I want to discuss the current grading system with club officials, find out who looks after it and how amenable they are to change and discussion. I thought I would bring back those learning to TT & this thread. As you say it's unlikely to make it into 2014 ... so I see no reason to hurry this along yet ... but I'll ask at the meeting about time lines and club discretion ...

I'd prefer to really socialise this topic, before doing the submission, I'm willing to bet that the better it is socialised the better the chance that it has of being finally adopted in part or whole.

I'd like to chuck it over onto RATs to get all the feedback from those that don't do TT, as well as maybe get some contact with the sub committee of MA that's looking at this too?

Sorry I'm guessing we would all like this done yesterday ... but my experience with these sorts of changes from other types of clubs I belong to suggests that socialisation, and getting as much of the opinions as possible of those that are involved will help it along.

As a summary though;
I think we have some well progressed ideas around Grade D, and who can and cannot be in the class.
There is still a lot of debate with respect to time frame between grading ... ranging from mine of per event, to Nelso and Marshy talking about the previous 6 months, with some difference with respect to your point about where the points go, to yours intra year, to Rick's of per year / years.
There's still some difference of opinion around the purpose of grading ... ranging from remaining with your peers within reason, to safety to experience to skills to times.
I didn't get any feedback re my laissez faire suggestion, so I'm guessing no one here is interested in that one, (which I find interesting).

So I'm thinking of maybe after discussions mentioned above to putting together a range of grading rules, that encompass different peoples views and opinions and perhaps putting them to the vote on the forums?

What say ye?

[Nelso]

Did you also know, you can be a B grader in NSW and travel to Victoria for the first time and compete as a D grader? Sophie Lovett competes as a B grader in NSW, C in Victoria and a D grader in Queensland. Oh, what a wonderful system we have!

The first thing you need to do is get all parties involved to agree to coordinate their grading so that they actually mean something. PCRA, St George, ASBK and FX all think D grade mean completely different things, so the first thing to do is get the different bodies together. There's no point adjusting St George's policies if the rest just keep on doing whatever they want.

[Little Mick]

agree with oyur thoughts Rick.. how do we eat an elephant... cant fix it all in one swoop, but if St G are open to trialing it.. then maybe, just maybe, the others may be willing to as well if it seems plausible?