St George handicap replacement

[Mr.Ed]

So many tough questions in this thread... I need a nap

[Little Mick]

yes...

[dan]

Fuck, 1.34 is so fucking fast.

What does the 'Cap' column represent?

[Little Mick]

Mitch Levy has been racing since 2008, Michael Blair, Callum Spriggs and Mark Bailey have raced since 2011, Grahame McCarthy was an A grader overseas. McCarthy did 4 races last year as a D grader and came back as a D grader this year despite doing a 1:40! Mitch Levy is still in C grade this year after racing for years and doing a 1:37's last year, yet Little Mick went up to C grade after doing 1:45's and Leanne went to B grade after doing 1:44's. The grading system is a fucking joke!

I'm all for renaming D grade as Novice, wearing newb vests and having no prizes as it will stop people like McCarthy from wanting to race in it.

Whatever they do, they need to sort it out, as the situation as it is now is pointless.

Just for clarity purposes, I only achieved 1:45's and 44's this year in Rnd 1... Last year my race results were as follows:


Race your mates April - not counted as a proper race and not run under MA
Race your mates June - not counted as a proper race and not run under MA
FXRRC Rnd 2 - EC GP circuit - best lap time 1:57 - not run under MA
St George Rnd 3 - Wakefield - 1:09 - MA event (placed 2nd or 3rd in D grade 600 CS)
St George 4hr - Wakefield - 1:10 - MA event
Race your mates September - not counted as a proper race and not run under MA
Race you mates December - killed bike in Qualy - no race..not counted as a proper race and not run under MA...

So my results as you can see are far from stellar...yet as Nelso said, I was rewarded with C grade in November last year...

At the end of the day, it hasn't made much difference as this year I have predominently entered a 600 against 1000's.. grade aside, its an uphill battle to start with. Within FOz, there is also a supersport sub class where I compete as a D grader against people like Mick Lockhart and Grant Hay - A graders.

In FX, I am entered as a D grader, as per my lap times (with review from TON). D grade is one of the biggest fields and there are guys lapping in the 1:39's and better, but interestingly, we all seem to be ok with it out on the track.. we are out there competing...we just work towards improving..

I should point out, that a lot of the fast young guns who are C and D graders were only breaking into Road racing in the last year or 2...Brad Swallow, Callum Spriggs, Brayden Elliot etc... these guys were playing with us in RYM either last year or this year and have improved in leaps and bounds - mostly with a dirt track background..

I am at the point where grade is irrelevent anymore... Its nice to be competing against peers of similar speeds, but it won't stop me getting out there if its all over the place...

thought to ponder... how would you feel if there were no grades..just turn up and race...?

[Phat3R]

I am at the point where grade is irrelevent anymore... Its nice to be competing against peers of similar speeds, but it won't stop me getting out there if its all over the place...

thought to ponder... how would you feel if there were no grades..just turn up and race...?

They are so broken it's as if we don't have them anyway ... getting rid of them formally would make STGMC trophy presentations much faster and save the club $$$ on hunks of plastique.

Coming back to first principles; what is the point of having grades? Seriously what was the original intention of having them?

I note in WA that some classes are open to specific grades only ...

CLUBMAN CLASS (Entry Level)
An entry level class open to solo riders and machines from Novice, D Grade and C Grade. Primarily, this level is a fun class for riders new to racing or those with a little less experience than the A and B Grade riders.

http://mcrcwa.com.au/Competition/roa...g-classes.html

[Stu23]

you have to take in consideration that a lot of people kind of specialise at EC.. For grading and times etc, its better to see times from a number of circuits... to upgrade licences in the Uk you must compete at 4 different circuits and finish in the top 50% etc ( bit difficult here lol i know ) but theres wakey, and if your brave, Broadford !

[Phat3R]

Out of this interesting discussion there seems to me like a lot of confusion around a matter that should really be straightforward IMHO. This should all be written down, codified somewhere so it is transparent and everyone knows what is going on, as opposed to some sort of combined game of Chinese Whispers & Snakes and Ladders.

I had a look through MoMS ... surely grades are documented in there, if not why not, and where else would be more suitable? I searched on the word 'grade' ... it's only mentioned in Motocross, Speedway, Moto Trials and Minikhana sections. I was amazed, can someone else try it ... maybe my Mac doesn't work real good?

In the Minikhana section (the only one with detailed specifics of the grading documented IMHO ... rest of them appear to be black magic at the discretion of who knows ... ).
So Minikhana section has stuff like this:

26.5.1.7 After each interclub or Championship meeting competitors will be upgraded within the competitors class as follows:
(a) Riders who place 1st or 2nd overall in
C grade will be upgraded to B grade
within that class,
(b) Riders who place 1st overall in B
grade will be up graded to A grade within that Class,
(c) Riders who place 3rd overall in C grade or B grade will recieve 9 grading points,
(d) Riders who place 2nd overall in B grade will recieve 12 grading points,
(e) Once a rider accumulates 21 grading points they will be moved up one grade within that class. Once upgraded they will commence in the new grade with 0 grading points.

Makes sense to me ... If you're D grade and finish 1st for the meet then you straight to C grade for first race of next meet. Grading points accumulated for other places ... and published ... so transparent, everyone knows WTF is going on. Once you accumulate enough grading points then up you go.

Potentially there is an opportunity to codify what ever is going on in Road Racing grading in MoMS, so it's no longer at the discretion of Mr Nobody?

So how to suggest making an MA rule ... I guess adding a rule is a change??? ... flowchart and all ...
http://www.ma.org.au/index.php?id=138

[dan]

I didn't give any consideration to grading when I was racing the other weekend - I wanted a Top 10 finish against the whole field. I'm not overly fussed by it but if there is going to be grading system then it should work.

[dan]

I think grading has to be done on times though. You may be top of C but if the jump to B is 4 seconds then it doesn't seem appropriate. Especially if say 4 riders are battling and lapping within .5 of each other in C.

[Phat3R]

I think grading has to be done on times though. You may be top of C but if the jump to B is 4 seconds then it doesn't seem appropriate. Especially if say 4 riders are battling and lapping within .5 of each other in C.

IMHO times add an additional level of complexity to grading, for very little reward. Specific yo tracks, weather, bikes, etc, absolute times or relative to others?

If it's kept really simple and easy to calculate and administer it can work ... as soon as it turns into the black box handicap formula ... the club won't be able to work it out and administer it and it will devolve into current mess.

If your finishing at the top of your grade for a meet then it's probably time to move up, regardless of your time. Like finishing year 6, big skool awaits.

[Marshy]

I guess adding a rule is a change???

Yup. Even though there's a sub-committee allocated to the task, I reckon a well-drafted suggestion for a rule change is the best way to achieve said change. I'll assist if you wanna take the lead.... I'm already leading the charge to have the St George handicap rules changed.

[Mr.Ed]

Well, there's a simpler solution that I reckon would work regardless of weather/track/experience/etc... Just get the race results sheet, separate the top5 and split the rest of the field in 3!

For argument's sake let's say there were 35 riders, top5 will be A graders, next 10 B graders, next 10 C graders and the rest D graders. Do that for an entire year and in the end of the year just need to calculate the average to know what grade the rider deserves. Sure there'll be some ppl caught in between grades but then, and only then, you can check their lap times to see where those would fit better.

[dan]

I originally thought that was how it was done. A grade is those within X time of the fastest, B grade 5s (for example) behind that, C 5 behind that etc

[dan]

Actually that is different haha

[Marshy]

That only really works if everyone races at all races/events/rounds, and at the same time. Also it doesn't match and compare people from, say, St George with people from ASBK. Top 10 in St George is a different pace to top 10 in ASBK!

[Phat3R]

That only really works if everyone races at all races/events/rounds, and at the same time. Also it doesn't match and compare people from, say, St George with people from ASBK. Top 10 in St George is a different pace to top 10 in ASBK!

Which one are you referring to Nick? The suggestion from Ed or the Minikhana section from MoMS?

I thought the ranking was specific to the club races, and assessed differently for ASBK? It's obviously different in the FX to MA lic sanctioned events.

Probably regardless of which ... it sounds like we are back to using absolute times again to be able to compare across comps, which means back to complexity.

Anyone know much about the systems that are used for times and hence positions from the transponders, you'd need those times electronically for doing grades?

[Mr.Ed]

That only really works if everyone races at all races/events/rounds, and at the same time. Also it doesn't match and compare people from, say, St George with people from ASBK. Top 10 in St George is a different pace to top 10 in ASBK!

If you only do one race, tough luck... can't cater especially for a rider that only do one event a year. Also, if you're getting top5 in StGeorge and move to ASBK chances are you won't be riding bellow the top15 so you'd be riding on a grade too high for you which is better than what's happening atm. If you go from ASBK to St.George (does anyone actually start on ASBK?) and move to St.George you'll prob get bumped after the first event anyway.

[Phat3R]

Yup. Even though there's a sub-committee allocated to the task, I reckon a well-drafted suggestion for a rule change is the best way to achieve said change. I'll assist if you wanna take the lead.... I'm already leading the charge to have the St George handicap rules changed.

I'm happy to look into this, but gotta admit I feel a little uneasy taking the lead, as being a virgin D grader it could appear I am doing it solely to better my own position. Plus I'm new to the racing game and I am not putting my hand up as the know it all expert re grading or MC racing ... because I clearly know SFA!

The next club meet is this time next week 27th, so I will go along and ask some questions re grading from some of those that actually run the club. I'll take along the latest MoMS and ask about where the grading system is actually documented.

[Phat3R]

Yep, that sucks, Rick. Many people have experienced the same or similar situations. The email from StG is technically accurate but not really how it works. As I understand it, the club prepares the list and forwards it to the RR committee (which also has club members on the committee), who rubber stamp it. MNSW then send out the certificates.

MA voted earlier this year to 'review' the grading system. There were two people nominated to look into it. They will apparently report back next year sometime. There wasn't even a direction to come back with a proposal specifically.

Frankly, it's not rocket surgery. It should simply be based on objective, measurable criteria, NOT the current subjective, whimsical system of 'at the discretion of a club committee member'. There should simply be lap-time brackets for grades, possibly based on machinery. And there should be three grades, not four (VIC only has A, B, and C). Plus a Novice category. This whole 'level of experience' stuff is total crap! You should race against people of your speed, not your experience. Times from all races (AASA, or MA) are all online now, so it is easy to check times.

Novice: Never raced (in any form of motorsport!) before; you only a novice for 3 race meetings maximum, and you get moved up regardless after winning a Novice-class race meet - even if it's your first ever race meet. Novices race separately to everyone else, and are not split by capacity (all Novices race on track together, separately from other grades). This allows people that have just started to actually win a race by crossing the line first, which is something that will hook people for life (it did for me). You get regraded at the end of your 3 race meets into whichever grade you fit, based on laptimes.

C grade: Same as currently. Lap time bracket, say, 1:50+ at EC and equivalent at other tracks.

B grade: 1:40 to 1:50 at EC (and equivalent).

A grade: sub-1:40.

My $0.02

OK I have reread this thread, and after asking all the dumb questions, Nick's suggestion above looks the best goods.

Questins:

With respect to the times, should these be best times, average of best race, average of all laps for a meeting, something else?

How often for regrading, yearly, 6 months, post meet?

We would need a set of times for mapping to grades for all tracks StG do and ASBK race at?

Should the times be coded in the rules or at discretion of the club? To deal with wet weather at all race meets for year say?

If you race in StG and ASBK, who grades you with MA?

Sorry for more silly Q's.

[Little Mick]

Rick

a couple of minor deviations...

rather than a hard cut off , suggest allowing a 1-2 second range and a repeatability component. - also need to consider weapon of choice - eg 1:45 on a zx10 vs 1:45 on a 01 gsxr600 are 2 different abilities.. ( I think Jan does this in an informal way as the guys who went from D to C last year were predominently 600 riders, even though the 1000 riders were lapping faster)

Novice - as per Nicks

C grade - bring C grade down to consistently in the range of 1:45/1:48 and above
B grade - bring B grade down to consistently in the range of 1:38/1:40 through to 1:45/1:48
A grade - consistently below 1:38s

in reality, its no use ramping people up too fast as even by the suggestion above, an A grader could be at the rear of the A grade field in ASBK/ FX..

the intent should be some consistency across the levels of racing..unless you wanted to introduce a Club racing grade vs a National grade... but this would overwhelm the powers that be and implementors to the point that it would all be too hard and we would have a status quo....(In reality, St Geouge would only have to deal with the Club level- ASBK would deal with the national level which may require validation via MA, or if interstate people are entering club rounds, then some validation for that).


PS: by the above account, that would put me in B grade based on the results at the beginning of this year... I would definitely NOT class myself as a B grader... my last weekend would actually put me back to Novice...

Matt Fyffe who is a B grader from Victoria was in our garage on the weekend... he was running in the 1:39s- 1:42s....hasnt run GP circuit for a couple of years.. (GSXR600)

Rhino was into the 1:39s on Eds bike (ZX6R)
Displaced was around the 1:45-1:46s (ZX6R)
Mick Saliba was 1:44s-1:46s (R6)

[senator8]

I think you guys are missing the point a bit. Grading should be based on experience. Not just times. Times need to play a part, but I’ll come back to that. It’s about motivation and competing against your peers. My complaint and disappointment in the beginning was that I’d just started racing and the riders that had started at a similar time were not also moved.
EG; Dan, Marty, Bob, Saturnalian, Jashdown, Condor, Phat3r etc (sorry if I left you out – you get the picture) All have come in together and I’m sure would like to remain in the same game so to speak. Yes? I came in with Little Mick, Displaced, Skizzi and Cerby from Rats etc. During that time the times have swapped places between the guys I came in with and I’m sure the same will happen with the new group I mentioned.
Why should I have to compete against Kev Curtain, Phil Lovett etc in A grade just because I’ve improved. That would be more de-motivating than what happened to me in the first place. They are not my peers so to speak. Just like most other sports, schools clubs etc, it should be based on experience mostly. So my system is based around similar. You enter the system and move through it with riders of the same experience and if you’re a little ahead of the pack then you may skip a year and if you’re a little slower then you have the option of redoing a year.

I also think that grading should have some flexibility to be class based as well. All this is not as complicated as it sounds as the classes haven’t changed much at all for some time far as I can see. But again I’ll come back to this

I don’t think there is a need for novice races, but as we had at FXRRC last year. A one off novice race to kick the day off can’t hurt. (sort of a single race single round championship)

For the purpose of this system a year is Jan - Dec

Novice (D) grade
You are considered a D grader until you have completed (finished) 12 races or more by the end of a year. If you did not complete 12 races then you number of races completed can be rolled over to a second year only. Example – 3x race meetings, 10x races finished, 1x DNF, 1x DNS = starts the 2nd year with 10x races completed. Completes the 2nd year as a D grader.

C Grade
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year. Example – rider comes in form D grade in 600s. In his now 2nd year of racing he is regularly finishing in the top 30% of the entire field. Then he will move to B Grade the following year. Regularly means 75% of the time. It’s no harder than drawing a line across the results for any race. Rider is either above or below it.

B Grade
This grade should be the longest stint and the class that has people move in and out of it as we start to get towards those that can, and those that probably won’t get a lot faster
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year. Example – rider comes in from C grade in 1000s. In his now 3rd or 4th year of racing he is regularly finishing in the top 30% of the entire field. Then he will move to A Grade the following year. Regularly means 75% of the time. It’s no harder than drawing a line across the results for any race. Rider is either above or below it. Now if the B grader is regularly finishing below 50% of the field then the rider has the option of moving back to C Grade until he regularly finishes above 50% of the field in a year.

A Grade
The most experienced and fastest grade.
You become A grade after you have gone through the sytem and should now have a minimum of 3 years if your faster than the average or 5 years if you went through as per the grading system.
If your finishes are regularly below the top 30% of the field, then you have the option of dropping to B grade the following year or until you are above 30% of the field in which case you must move back up to A grade.

Class Grades
You may nominate to run a grade lower if it is your first year in that class but D grade cannot be nominated. Example – rider is a B grader in 600s and wants to try 1000s or go to 1000s the following season. In either case he has the option to compete in 1000s for the 1st year at a grade lower after which his Lic grade or normal grade requirements apply.

Other reasons you may change grades.
If a rider stops racing then the experience or time factor works in reverse. But no lower than C grade unless more than 5 year absence. Example – B grader completes 2 years then has a break. No racing for one year he come back as B grade and if his finishes and times dictate he will then keep going to A. If he takes a 2 year break he will come back as a 2nd year C grader etc

It’s only a rough, but it is a system I would be happy with and can be applied retrospectively to the existing grades. It evens out the results with some riders being faster only on one track etc I also think that it is fair and objective.

I may have also made some mistakes! I was trying to do as quickly as possible before work got the better of me.

[dan]

Someone who is good at excel could make a spreadsheet that pulls the info relatively painlessly, clips the outliers and takes an average of race pace that spits out into a workable list. That person is not me haha

[dan]

Or average finishing place..

[Little Mick]

I like Rick

[senator8]

I like Rick

Let's put it under scrutiny, try and pick holes in it and see if it will stand up!

[Little Mick]

worth referencing lap record as starting point for super fast end of A grade?

[dan]

That seems like a pretty decent starting point. You are right about wanting to race in the same grade as the people you came in with.

[senator8]

worth referencing lap record as starting point for super fast end of A grade?

But for which class? I don't think it matters. The laps times are only relevant if outside the averages for your class.
One addition may be, if you run two or more classes. Your lic grade will be based on the class you completed the most races in (your main class). If two classes exactly the same then, your class with the best results. Again, only applicable if outside the average

[Little Mick]

But for which class? I don't think it matters. The laps times are only relevant if outside the averages for your class.
One addition may be, if you run two or more classes. Your lic grade will be based on the class you completed the most races in (your main class). If two classes exactly the same then, your class with the best results. Again, only applicable if outside the average

a guy who is at lap record on a 1000, will be up there on a 600 as well - but I was thinking about where does fast start... as you say, it only really applies when outside the average..

[Mr.Ed]

I like Rick's idea... only issue I see is that there are riders out there riding different classes on the same event. So if you're a B grader on a 1000 and decide to give the 600s a go as well how would you go about getting your grade back to C?? To me, that is also the whole problem with doing the grading based on laptimes. I reckon the experience idea is a valid one... but maybe remove the rest so it doesn't over complicate things.

[Little Mick]

and I want an age handicap and no weight handicap...J/K

so if I raced 6 races last year (including FX and St George but excluding RYM) then this year I would have remained a D grader... Next year I would be in C grade, even if I didnt race this year? (do you have to at least compete once in the year to progress? )....

then, as long as I remain around the midpoint of the C grade results, I will stay there until I get into the top 30% of C graders in the class 75% of the time. So if there are only 3 C graders in the class, and the boys are .5 sec/lap faster and always beat me - i.e. I get 3rd place regularly, then the first place getter would get bumped and ol' mate who came 2nd and I would stay in C grade for another year..

If I get better and finish infront of him the following year, then I can expect a bump...

the only real issue I see is sample size... ie- 3 racers in a grade vs 10 racers in a grade.. but again, not a biggie...

[Little Mick]

I like Rick's idea... only issue I see is that there are riders out there riding different classes on the same event. So if you're a B grader on a 1000 and decide to give the 600s a go as well how would you go about getting your grade back to C?? To me, that is also the whole problem with doing the grading based on laptimes. I reckon the experience idea is a valid one... but maybe remove the rest so it doesn't over complicate things.

TBH, I see a rider who rides a 1000 around the track as a B grader, doesnt get the option of rolling back to C if they jump on a 600... Rhino showed us why on the weekend....prime candidate for B grade me thinks

[Mr.Ed]

TBH, I see a rider who rides a 1000 around the track as a B grader, doesnt get the option of rolling back to C if they jump on a 600... Rhino showed us why on the weekend....prime candidate for B grade me thinks

Yep! And if he drops another second on either bike I'm sending him to A... hahahhaha

[Mr.Ed]

TBH, there has to be a contention plan for guys like Rhino... He's a D grader and does low 37s on a stock standard 10R with shagged tires and then jump on a 6R with stock brakes/suspension and does a loooong string of 39s. There has to be a way to skip him a grade or 2.

[Little Mick]

well they have his MX racing background....

[senator8]

It's a system. No arbitrary or subjective decisions.
Doesn't every rider deserve to be at the top of their grade if they are riding well? Isn't that the whole point. The reason for the averages is that once out of novice D grade over time the riders will end up with similar experienced riders and times. It's not against best times or track times which seem to be getting quicker. Then what change the cut off times? This is why it is averaged against the field you race in.

Ryan wouldn't be in D grade under this system and would be in B most likely after a fastrack year in C. Then if he still gets faster he can fight to get into A.

The field is basically broken into 3rds ABC, another reason for the averages.

[senator8]

I like Rick's idea... only issue I see is that there are riders out there riding different classes on the same event. So if you're a B grader on a 1000 and decide to give the 600s a go as well how would you go about getting your grade back to C?? To me, that is also the whole problem with doing the grading based on laptimes. I reckon the experience idea is a valid one... but maybe remove the rest so it doesn't over complicate things.

If you are racing for your grade championship. Occasional riders in a class do not change things. You might miss out on a round trophy. You can't account or try to pigeon hole everyone. He has the option of dropping a grade.

To put it into perspective. How does it compare with the current NO system? At least you know the rules and guidelines for grading and where you will be and who you will be up against.

[senator8]

and I want an age handicap and no weight handicap...J/K

so if I raced 6 races last year (including FX and St George but excluding RYM) then this year I would have remained a D grader... Next year I would be in C grade, even if I didnt race this year? (do you have to at least compete once in the year to progress? )....

then, as long as I remain around the midpoint of the C grade results, I will stay there until I get into the top 30% of C graders in the class 75% of the time. So if there are only 3 C graders in the class, and the boys are .5 sec/lap faster and always beat me - i.e. I get 3rd place regularly, then the first place getter would get bumped and ol' mate who came 2nd and I would stay in C grade for another year..

If I get better and finish infront of him the following year, then I can expect a bump...

the only real issue I see is sample size... ie- 3 racers in a grade vs 10 racers in a grade.. but again, not a biggie...

Good question Mick. As far as I am concerned RYM should be counted as racing. But to answer the basis of your question. If you did not race at all the following year and as such have not left D grade then you can re enter or repeat the year as you did not leave it. I suppose the rules would need to clarify this. You cannot go back to D grade once you have become C grade unless 5 years pass. In effect you are not a novice by definition.

[Mr.Ed]

How about a rule that would allow a rider to voluntarily move a grade up but not down? Of course this wouldn't be an automatic change but something that would be taken into consideration by whoever sets the grades based on laptimes/results against the field/experience and etc.

Reason I say that is 'cause the REALLY fast guys on the wrong grades usually say stuff like "I actually think I shouldn't be in this grade but they won't let me change it" I.e. Sean Condon on the race weekend I attached... him and his dad said they tried all they could to get him moved to A because it would be easier to find sponsorship and etc but got nowhere, that was not the only time I've heard that either. Michaelt from RATs said something similar as well as a few others.

[senator8]

That's easy. With rules and guidelines isn't it? If he fits within the grade averages for his field then he can apply to be moved up.

[Phat3R]

Wow some good ideas floating around there.

Some questions:

1. Re the earlier discussion about the likes of very fast riders in D/Novice such as JC or Graham, how will this address that? From what I read it may extend it?

2. Years are a tricky measure, what do you do in terms of counting when someone is off 6 months through injury ... does that count or not? Could we move away from years to race meets or races as that's what you are suggesting as the measurement for D grade, and it's good to have a consistent measurement stick?

3. Lap times are consistently in the top 30% of your class. I got your idea re consistent - 75%. But to be clear what exactly does top 30% of class means. I assume it's on a per race basis (you can't easily compare lap times consistently outside a race due to conditions).
On a class by class basis:
a. Lay out all the lap times from slowest to fastest, then calculate 30 the difference and add it to the fastest lap time as the cut off. Issue there is there may be some very slow laps due to mechanical issues.
b. Or just take the fastest lap time and multiply by 1.3 as the cut off.
c. Or get an average of all lap times within a race and use a multiplier on that to determine cut off?
d. Or top 30% of positions in a race ... very easy measurement, no lap times required and relative hence not weather dependent.

Sorry these probably sound like stoopid q's but somehow we need to write a very precise formula for MoMS. I think it's preferable to have specific codified rules with no need for discretion by officials, otherwise it can quickly devolve to current situation.

I think you guys are missing the point a bit. Grading should be based on experience. Not just times. Times need to play a part, but I’ll come back to that. It’s about motivation and competing against your peers. My complaint and disappointment in the beginning was that I’d just started racing and the riders that had started at a similar time were not also moved.
EG; Dan, Marty, Bob, Saturnalian, Jashdown, Condor, Phat3r etc (sorry if I left you out – you get the picture) All have come in together and I’m sure would like to remain in the same game so to speak. Yes? I came in with Little Mick, Displaced, Skizzi and Cerby from Rats etc. During that time the times have swapped places between the guys I came in with and I’m sure the same will happen with the new group I mentioned.
Why should I have to compete against Kev Curtain, Phil Lovett etc in A grade just because I’ve improved. That would be more de-motivating than what happened to me in the first place. They are not my peers so to speak. Just like most other sports, schools clubs etc, it should be based on experience mostly. So my system is based around similar. You enter the system and move through it with riders of the same experience and if you’re a little ahead of the pack then you may skip a year and if you’re a little slower then you have the option of redoing a year.

I also think that grading should have some flexibility to be class based as well. All this is not as complicated as it sounds as the classes haven’t changed much at all for some time far as I can see. But again I’ll come back to this

I don’t think there is a need for novice races, but as we had at FXRRC last year. A one off novice race to kick the day off can’t hurt. (sort of a single race single round championship)

For the purpose of this system a year is Jan - Dec

Novice (D) grade
You are considered a D grader until you have completed (finished) 12 races or more by the end of a year. If you did not complete 12 races then you number of races completed can be rolled over to a second year only. Example – 3x race meetings, 10x races finished, 1x DNF, 1x DNS = starts the 2nd year with 10x races completed. Completes the 2nd year as a D grader.

C Grade
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year. Example – rider comes in form D grade in 600s. In his now 2nd year of racing he is regularly finishing in the top 30% of the entire field. Then he will move to B Grade the following year. Regularly means 75% of the time. It’s no harder than drawing a line across the results for any race. Rider is either above or below it.

B Grade
This grade should be the longest stint and the class that has people move in and out of it as we start to get towards those that can, and those that probably won’t get a lot faster
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year. Example – rider comes in from C grade in 1000s. In his now 3rd or 4th year of racing he is regularly finishing in the top 30% of the entire field. Then he will move to A Grade the following year. Regularly means 75% of the time. It’s no harder than drawing a line across the results for any race. Rider is either above or below it. Now if the B grader is regularly finishing below 50% of the field then the rider has the option of moving back to C Grade until he regularly finishes above 50% of the field in a year.

A Grade
The most experienced and fastest grade.
You become A grade after you have gone through the sytem and should now have a minimum of 3 years if your faster than the average or 5 years if you went through as per the grading system.
If your finishes are regularly below the top 30% of the field, then you have the option of dropping to B grade the following year or until you are above 30% of the field in which case you must move back up to A grade.

Class Grades
You may nominate to run a grade lower if it is your first year in that class but D grade cannot be nominated. Example – rider is a B grader in 600s and wants to try 1000s or go to 1000s the following season. In either case he has the option to compete in 1000s for the 1st year at a grade lower after which his Lic grade or normal grade requirements apply.

Other reasons you may change grades.
If a rider stops racing then the experience or time factor works in reverse. But no lower than C grade unless more than 5 year absence. Example – B grader completes 2 years then has a break. No racing for one year he come back as B grade and if his finishes and times dictate he will then keep going to A. If he takes a 2 year break he will come back as a 2nd year C grader etc

It’s only a rough, but it is a system I would be happy with and can be applied retrospectively to the existing grades. It evens out the results with some riders being faster only on one track etc I also think that it is fair and objective.

I may have also made some mistakes! I was trying to do as quickly as possible before work got the better of me.

[Little Mick]

position in grade per race, not lap times rick

[Phat3R]

Being cross entered for 600 and 600CS for RJays Rnd 5 & 6 I started and completed 12 races over the weekend, well maybe only 11 re R18 ... (along with several others), so it would be C grade for me next year. I'm actually cool with that, wondered what others thought? Note under this suggestion Dan who is much faster than me would still be D grade all next year?

Seems like there should be a mechanism to allow riders in a lower grade to put themselves up a grade so they can stay with their peers, regardless of circumstance?

Dan (or anyone else in a similar position) if that were an option would you want to go up to C or stay in D for the rest of the year?

[Phat3R]

position in grade per race, not lap times rick

OK so 3.d. I like, keeps it simple.

There was conflicting terminology in there, so I want to be clear. Rick also mentioned lap times were important and that he would get to them, but didn't.

C Grade
2 Years - or if your times are consistently in the top 30% of your class then 1 year.

I realise what he's written is a brain dump in short time, it's a brilliant starter, I wanted to just clarify what we all mean.

[senator8]

Yep, was definitely a brain dump. I know a few of my uses of terminology are ambiguous.
I'll try and tidy up tonight and clear a few questions up, as well as run through a few scenarios.

[senator8]

Rick, yes you would be a c grader according to the system. Keep in mind Pcra only did 10 races or something the whole year over 4 race meetings, so a line has to be drawn somewhere.

As for 6mths off due to injury. I'll give it some thought, but my first reaction is if you've completed 6 or more races for the year then you have competed. It has to be years not races. Grading will be calculated and done at the same time end of season every year. Again a line somewhere

[dan]

Being cross entered for 600 and 600CS for RJays Rnd 5 & 6 I started and completed 12 races over the weekend, well maybe only 11 re R18 ... (along with several others), so it would be C grade for me next year. I'm actually cool with that, wondered what others thought? Note under this suggestion Dan who is much faster than me would still be D grade all next year?

Seems like there should be a mechanism to allow riders in a lower grade to put themselves up a grade so they can stay with their peers, regardless of circumstance?

Dan (or anyone else in a similar position) if that were an option would you want to go up to C or stay in D for the rest of the year?

If I can learn to get my bike off the line I might haha

[dan]

Being cross entered for 600 and 600CS for RJays Rnd 5 & 6 I started and completed 12 races over the weekend, well maybe only 11 re R18 ... (along with several others), so it would be C grade for me next year. I'm actually cool with that, wondered what others thought? Note under this suggestion Dan who is much faster than me would still be D grade all next year?

Seems like there should be a mechanism to allow riders in a lower grade to put themselves up a grade so they can stay with their peers, regardless of circumstance?

Dan (or anyone else in a similar position) if that were an option would you want to go up to C or stay in D for the rest of the year?

Seriously though, yeah I'd go up to C. D has to be renamed NOVICE though

On a side note, Clubsport qualifying on the Sunday broken down like this - make of it what you will:

1. D grade
2. AB
3. AB
4. AB
5. AB
6. D
7. D
8. D
9. C
10. C

[dan]

Question - so grading would only be taken off race positions under this system - not qualifying right?

[senator8]

Question - so grading would only be taken off race positions under this system - not qualifying right?

Grading only applies to experience. Qualifying is not counted for anything.
Times are only used if you are in the top or bottom 30% of your field for 75% or more of your races.